Kathryn did a good review of the coverage from today's OTA in the previous thread. To summarize, there were numerous positive reviews of his new mechanics, several reviews critical of his mental game, and a few haters sniping that he still doesn't look "pretty".
Most crucially, there were no reports of egregiously bad throws. Reporters covering Tim in camp with the Broncos, Jets, and Pats described him throwing wildly errant balls on a regular basis. If those problems had persisted after 2 years with Tom House, then Tim's career would be toast. That Tim is gone forever, we hope.
As for holding the ball too long, he's been out of football for two years. This is his third practice with a new offense. What the hell did they expect? Ignore that crap until training camp starts. Then it counts.
In the Captain Obvious department, there were several reports of "holy cow, Tebow is really good at read option." I'm sure Chip has already taken note of that.
Kathryn also noted that Tim weighs 250 now. He supposedly slimmed down to a more QB-like build, but that is heavier than his playing weight with the Jets. His legs must be oak trees. Maybe he is still growing. He will be a fearsome battering ram for short yardage situations.
Here is the schedule of remaining OTAs open to the media:
Mon, June 1
Mon, June 8
Tues, June 9
Tues-Thurs, June 16-18 (mini-camp)
Oh yeah, one more thing. Note the absence of a "circus". Tim was actually about 6th on most reporter's topic agendas. Good on them. Gotta say I like the Philly media. The national media are far more interested in what Chip is up to.
Please share links to particularly good media accounts in the comments.
A couple of quick takeaways from today's comments from Chip & Tim.
ReplyDelete1) The quaterback spots are up for grabs. There is no definitive starter.
2) Chip downplayed the new extra point rule saying it didn't do enough to entice teams to go for 2. We'll see about that.
3) Tims new mechanics are obvious. There is no denying them & anyone who does cannot be taken seriously. (I believe a byproduct of this besides the improvements it will bring to his overall game is it will make him a more consistent practice player). Thus the reason for no errant throws today.
4) I thought it was great the way Tim laughed off some questions that were clearly meant to irritate him.
5) His ability to run at 250 lbs. & with speed in the open field gives Chip alot of possibilities to consider. If he can master the offense & make the reads we should get some positive results.
6) Alot of the read option concepts are new to Bradford also & he has not played much in the last 2 years either so he & Tim are both learning this system together.
Just wanted to add two quick things.
Delete1) Chip says he thinks the team is 1000% better than last year. Thats a bold statement considering all the moves he made & the fact that there is not a starter at QB yet. I like it.
2) Tim may weigh 250lbs but its possible that the nutritional programs that he was on with Tom House & now the Eagles have changed his body composition. Possibly for the better. His upper body looks leaner & as does his mid section.
Here is a negative review that specifically mentions inaccuracy. However, it is vague enough that it reads more like a typical hater article, eg. someone trying to justify their existing dislike by taking easy cheap shots. Overthrows downfield are usually a result of poor timing and lack of chemistry with the receivers, both to be expected on 3rd day of OTAs.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/305401301.html
I think one day is too small a sample size to say either way. We'll have to watch the reviews over several weeks of practice. By the end of minicamp we should know whether the old Tim resurfaces under pressure.
However, it is encouraging that "most" journalists were either positive or refrained from judgement. If you go back to Tim's first few days with the Pats, reporters were openly mocking him for throwing wild balls. There were plenty of tweets during Pats minicamp about Tim throwing balls at the stands, the coaches, and the ballboys. If we don't see any of that over the next few weeks, even from the most hostile observers, that will be a very good sign.
I have read probably every article today, from those who have stated that Tim is as bad as he has ever been, to those saying they see some or wast improvements in his delivery and accuracy.
ReplyDeleteI took some time to process it and here are my initial thoughts after this one practice:
1. It's just one (ONE, 1) practice. One. ONE OPEN PRACTICE. Maybe he had better practices two days before this media availability. Maybe he was worse. I don't think Chip would be advertising his improvements in his answer about Tim if there is no base for it.
2. Taking this in mind, Tim will NEVER win the Prisco's or Hubbuch's or McLane's for this matter of the world. For them, Tim is always looking funny, strange and will always have a hitch in his motion and not be enough Brady or Manning. Although, journalist create perception and can have different agendas and success in that, Chip seems like a clear Don't Give a Fuck kind of guy not to let that have any influence on him.
3. The positives that I take from this is that he was vastly better in his short and intermediate throws which means that he has developed during his off years some resemblance of throwing touch that, I think, was never there. I saw that he made a big 40 yard effortless bomb to a receiver so I guess the arm is still there. I also saw a reporter rating his arm second strongest to Sam's. Which is understandable, Bradford has a more natural throwing motion, he didn't need to remake his motion. He has years of throws ahead of Tim and that's fine. There is more to a game than just an arm. Knees too. haha, I'm the worst. :( I mean, what can one open practice tell you anyway...!?
4. The negatives that I did not like, and I'm sure none of you too, is his decision making. Slow decision making for that matter. I will make one stupid comparison to make my case and that one is about Michael Jordan. We all know that MJ took a year away from BB. For that entire year back he flashed some moments of brilliance, but for the most part of the year he was pretty much ordinary and not himself. Now take into consideration that Tim hasn't thrown against anything but air the last 2 years, and when he was throwing he wasn't very good at it. As much as we call Tim the most fearsome and head strong athlete in a long time, he's still very much human and susceptible to pressure, not so sure about outside pressure, but his inner created to maybe now prove people wrong and paint himself in a better light, to impress his coaches and his teammates. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but your arm tends to shorten and you need some time to grow comfortable into what you're doing on the practice grass. Esp with people around you, some artificial pressure in practices too. And this will take Tim more time than the rest of the QB's. For starters, his learning disability, and he's the rookie in this system. I would say he's a rookie QB all together. Throwing the football wise. I hope he let's his arm go. Maybe he'll just relax and let it rip. As my deceased grandfather used to say, translated from Croatian loosely, "You can't live in fear, you'll end waking up shitting your pants sooner or later." He was a WW2 veteran, that was probably war talk :)
5. Now my impressions of Tim, body composition wise. Bob accurately observed that Tim looks leaner and slimmer in his waist line. His hips were the biggest problem always, he always looked stiff in the mid section. You can see that his guns are leaner and his waistline is really thin. He must have distributed that weight to his calves and thighs perhaps, although his foot quickness was never in doubt in my book in condensed spaces and in between tackles.
ReplyDelete6. It should be an interesting summer. I will not read to much into what people write about him. I scoff too much on negative writing about him, sometimes I feel like a adolescent fanboy. That's not a good look for a grown up. I look forward to training camp, there's the time when will Tim look as ready as he's never been ready. We know he never had a proper training camp, and he'll have this one with enough reps under belt and in an offense catered to his strengths. I know he'll get mop up time as a third stringer in games, but it should tell us at least how he looks against proper competition. I wish for an objective set of eyes that will make my judgment as cloudless as possible.
and 7. The most important thing for Tim in this OTA/TC period is making his receivers look better than they really are. I know it's a tall order but if just manages to scrape the surface on that one, he has a great chance to make the team.
Godspeed and good luck to Tim.
Best
Josip
ps, hope this was not too long, had a fight with my wife had to went on line to just cool off and calm down.
Josip,
DeleteAll good stuff. The key attribute Tim must show is progress. Coaches always say that's what they are looking for in OTAs. If Tim shows improvement in the speed of his decision making over the course of the next 3 weeks, that will indicate what we are seeing now is a natural and understandable learning process.
Josip, I agree with all of your points. I feel this one, in particular, has been lost in even the favorable reviews:
Delete>>he was vastly better in his short and intermediate throws which means that he has developed during his off years some resemblance of throwing touch that, I think, was never there.<<
I think one of the chief knocks on him in the past was that he effectively had zero intermediate passing game, limiting him and his coaches to either the deep ball, the run, or the dink-and-dunk. While his run with the Broncos proved that you can have some success with a more limited playbook, the lack of an intermediate passing game nevertheless left a gaping hole in the proverbial tool belt that most certainly frustrated his OC's, not to mention his receivers. That he's now consistently making sharp intermediate throws is huge.
>>The negatives that I did not like, and I'm sure none of you too, is his decision making. Slow decision making for that matter.<<
Agreed, and I'm truly hoping at this stage that much of this is a function of practice and familiarity. I do not know the extent of his dyslexia. Even he doesn't know because he doesn't have a reference point for normal visual cognition. But given his mastery of college schemes it stands to reason that the only thing standing between him and the same ability to anticipate pro defenses is time. The question isn't whether he can master the pro game. The question is whether Chip Kelly can afford to give him the time he needs.
No one can say at this point, no matter how certain they say they are, but I would offer this: as Godawful atrocious as Tim's preseason debut with the Pats was, he had improved enough and performed well enough by the end of the final preseason game that analysts were writing that he had made Belichick's decision whether to cut or keep him very hard; some even projecting that he'd make the roster. With only about ten weeks of study and practice he came within striking distance of a backup that was 3 years familiar with the playbook.
>>as Godawful atrocious as Tim's preseason debut with the Pats was, he had improved enough and performed well enough by the end of the final preseason game that analysts were writing that he had made Belichick's decision whether to cut or keep him very hard; some even projecting that he'd make the roster. With only about ten weeks of study and practice he came within striking distance of a backup that was 3 years familiar with the playbook.<<
DeleteGreat point. And keep this in mind: the Pats offense is notoriously complex, demanding, and designed for a very different type of QB than Tim. The Eagles offense is simple, "QB friendly", and damn near tailor made for Tim. And he has nearly twice as much time to learn it.
>> The question is whether Chip Kelly can afford to give him the time he needs. <<
He has time. There are no required roster cuts until late August, so no reason to cut Tim before the end of preseason unless he is just hideously bad. Plus, Bradford was limping yesterday, so he is nowhere near ready to play or practice. If he cannot even do non-contact throwing drills now, I seriously doubt he is going to be ready for contact in preseason games. Until Bradford is back, Chip will keep 3 QB's, and I wouldn't put it past him to keep all 3 until he is certain that Bradford is not an injury risk, eg several games into the regular season.
Bottom line, Tim is going to get game time in the preseason, and that will be his time to rise or fall. The odds were stacked against him in New England, and he still almost pulled it off. Now he is competing on a level playing field. We're all fans because of how he rises to the challenge. I think he does it again. :)
I'm enjoying everyone's comments here. Does anyone know why Tim's ankles are taped?
ReplyDeleteI'm guessing since both are taped he's just taking precautions. He's older and he's got some rust to knock off so it makes sense.
DeleteThat's what I've been hoping.
DeleteHere's a link to a video with Tim throwing in yesterdays practice. Keep it running through to the 2nd video. Its the most throwing I have seen from him. For your viewing pleasure I recommend muting the commentary from the talking heads :).
ReplyDeleteYes its a small sample size but the changes in his throwing are undeniable. Will they revert back under pressure? We'll find out as camp goes on but notice how consistent each throw is & how his thumb faces downward & towards his body as he releases the ball & how balanced his body is from head to toe.
The article might be worth reading too it has a funny ending. :)
www.csnphilly.com/football-philadelphia-eagles/tim-tebow-feels-improved-ready-play-quarterback-eagles
What did you all make of Tim's comments yesterday??? He has such an aw shucks demeanor. He made mention of how much more appreciative he was of playing & how he knows he cannot play football forever so he was going to enjoy it. I got the impression that these last two years he was out of football were very tough for him.
DeleteThose comments are not normally attributed to a 27 year old. Usually when you hear comments like that its from a player who has played many years & was closing in on retireing. I hope its a sign of a person who is mature beyond their years.
Great footage, thanks for posting!
DeleteHis motion is clearly, objectively better. Much more compact and balanced, holds the ball high, and the old loop is gone. He still has a bit of a hitch as he loads up his hips, and his release is still not very quick, but it is good enough.
As for his comments, very little that Tim does or says can be evaluated through the lens of a typical 27 year old. He is not just mature beyond his years, he is weeks in a way that many adults never achieve at any age.
Nothing earth-shattering here, but it's a nice write up.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/05/what_has_eagles_quarterback_tim_tebow_done_to_get.html
Another very nice one.
ReplyDeletehttp://mobile.philly.com/sports/eagles/?wss=/philly/sports/eagles&id=305619991
Yeah. Mike is great. And level headed. I like Mike's writing. He's a great follow on twitter too.
DeleteI liked the Eckel piece better. It's based on facts & gives Tim's fans more reason for hope in what he could accomplish going forward therefore I felt it was more uplifting. The Sieski piece was more in depth & I would have enjoyed it more without the reference to his throwing motion being as "deliberate & robotic as a driver ed student making a three point turn". Let's give the guy his due for all the hard work he has put in on that motion.
DeleteIf it was as robotic & deliberate as the article says I doubt Chip would have signed him.
On the Eagles web site philadelphiaeagles.com there is a good article from Jason Kelce the center who is emerging as a team leader. He has some interesting things to say about quarterback & offensive line play & had some candid remarks about how the team's late season implosion last year may have been a good thing since it forced the team to recognize their weaknesses & make the necessary changes to correct them.
Tomorrow should be another fun day for us since we will get more insight into practice for us to discuss.
After waiting 2 long years & enduring many frustrations hoping that Tim would get to play again, personally I felt a great sense of satisfaction seeing Tim out on the field again on Fri.
I really liked Sielski's article. Interesting topic that's rarely explored with any genuine curiosity.
DeleteAs to your issue with the driver ed remark, I honestly think some of these guys feel they have to qualify their positive analysis of Tebow with some sort of cheap shot that maintains their credibility in the clubhouse. I mean, you *must* be a Kool-Aid swilling Bible thumper if you believe Tim Tebow has a shot at a role in the NFL as a quarterback with a viable passing game, AMIRITE? I like Sielski. He's actually one of the more decent guys out there and his criticisms of TT are usually legit. I don't think he's mean spirited by any stretch of the imagination, but even he from time to time feels the need to make sure that everyone understands that he's a Bonafide Objective Reporter And Not a Tebow Sycophant (TM).
But whatever. At the end of the day TT can take it, and with much more grace and perspective than his fans can, I'll sheepishly admit that. Incidentally that innate diplomacy is itself one of the drivers of his popularity.
Bob wrote: "The Sieski piece was more in depth & I would have enjoyed it more without the reference to his throwing motion being as "deliberate & robotic as a driver ed student making a three point turn". Let's give the guy his due for all the hard work he has put in on that motion."
DeleteI have no problem with Sielski being cynical. I thought he was referring to that of past time. I like my writers to be healthy cynical, even in the expense of my favorite athlete. Tim's a big boy, I'm sure he would be the first one to tell you that his motion before this year was not good. Well, he told us. He remade it. TBH, Tim's motion before the new revamped one was a bit robotic. There were more hitches than me hitting on my wife when I had to make my first move. That was bad.
As to Kathryn's observation, I really think some of the more level headed reporters are really hoping for Tim to make the team. First and foremost, COLUMNS!!! But second of all, I'm sure they are around the team more and have an insight into this guy that is not that fake as Prisco's of the world try to portray him to be and they are inclined to root for an underdog as much as the next fan too. Not maybe in the open like we are, but deep down every man with an ounce of an empathy in his body always roots for the underdog. And, right now, there is not bigger underdog in the world of sports than one Timothy Richard.
best
j
From what I've been reading on twitter today, it seems like Tim is having a really rough day today. I know it's young June, but days like this are making me nervous. Anyone else got the similar vibe from twitter today!?
ReplyDeleteVery much so. Just have to hope his struggles are due to newness in system, and not relapse of historical throwing inaccuracy. Let's see what he does over arc of all OTAs.
Deletewell, I've seen from various places that his balls were all over the place today. It was raining and it was slippery but still. The thing that bothers me the most when reading all this stuff is the constant comparison to Barkley and insistence at the moment at how much Tim is behind Matt. I mean, you have a 3 year system QB doing better than a 2 years of the streets QB in a completely new system. Go figure, right!?
DeleteThe bulk of that narrative is based on Lombardo's hit piece, which ignored the fact that Barkley also unraveled today in order to draw a conclusion that, by any measure, is premature. Like ESP tweeted the other day, Tim may not succeed, but calling the code now, when he has but a handful of practices under his belt, is pointless.
DeleteThat said, Tim is straight up handing it to these guys on a velvet pillow with a glass of orange juice. The fact that it was raining, or that Matt Barkley was intercepted today doesn't change the fact that TT legitimately inspired his haters, and even supporters, to tweet that he's still playing like a high school quarterback. At some point soon he's absolutely got to show that it's all starting to gel.
On the other hand, you would have had to search pretty hard to read anything like this written about Tim 2 years ago:
ReplyDelete"it's hard to look at Tebow throw the ball and see anything wrong with his delivery compared to the other quarterbacks. The ball comes out quickly, in a tight spiral, and for the most part, accurately."
http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/sam_bradford_tim_tebow_and_10_observations_from_ea.html
For better or for worse everything Tim does is going to be magnified. If he did make some bad throws I am sure it was no different than the bad throws that were reportedly made by the other quarterbacks.
DeleteLike the article says his delivery is no different from the quarterbacks. What is different which the article also says is his unquestioned superiority in running the read option. This will serve him well when it counts.
Note: It was good to see him stay after practice throwing to the recievers. One thing he has a chance to do here in Philly which he could not have done in New England is lead.
The criticism is nerve-wracking, but I still believe we must make a distinction between his physical and mental performance at this stage in his return.
ReplyDeletePhysical accuracy should NOT be an issue. If he still struggles with wild passes after 2 years with Tom House, then he needs to hang up the cleats or try out for fullback.
However, it is entirely reasonable and expectable for him to struggle with mental aspects of the game such as decision-making, timing, and ball placement. He has not played football in 2 years. He is 6 weeks into learning a new offensive system, the 5th system of his pro career. He just finished his 4th on-field practice. Of course he is going to struggle intially, but he should get better with reps.
Reading media reports, it is tough to figure out where the problem lies. Is he missing his receivers? Or is he failing to complete passes because he does not understand the playbook well enough yet to anticipate and adjust mentally?
I have seen a few reports that he is still inaccurate, and they scare me. However, digging into the accompanying description of what he did, I think there is still room to attribute his issues so far to mental adjustment. Also, I have not seen any of the derision that accompanied his training camp with the Pats, where spectators jeered his wild throws and reporters mocked him out loud in the press tent. While he may have missed a few throws, he has not been wild so far.
So as hard as it will be, I think we must keep in mind the watchword PROGRESS. We need to see steady improvement over the course of OTAs. That does not mean we'll see him get better each day, but it does mean that by the end of OTA's he should be coming up to par with the other QBs.
To that end, I will note that we did not see any reports of him holding the ball too long today. Perhaps the coaches spoke to him about his problems with that last Thursday. If so, that is exactly the kind of incremental improvement we and the coaches need to see.
I noticed the same thing about the lack of derision in the comments from reporters. Thats a huge development. I also believe some of the reports of his innacuracies while I am sure they do exist are exagerated by ceretain reporters with an agenda.
DeleteThere are a couple of reporters who are pointing out some very good things to go along with some of the bad. While there are yet others who do nothing but criticize.
I am going to pay more attention to the reporters which seem to be fair.
>>Reading media reports, it is tough to figure out where the problem lies.<<
DeleteThis is particularly frustrating due to the wholesale employment of the term "inaccuracy" as an umbrella explanation for incompletions. That tells us nothing. Is he throwing the ball wrong or is he out-of-sync with his receivers? As you have suggested, the former spells doom while the latter has the potential to improve with time.
>>To that end, I will note that we did not see any reports of him holding the ball too long today. Perhaps the coaches spoke to him about his problems with that last Thursday.<<
It's all conjecture, but if he's prioritizing getting the ball out quicker over waiting for a receiver to open up it could explain a lot of the ugly today because he's forcing himself out of his comfort zone. But that's encouraging because it's precisely the sort of exercise he needs to be doing (and could explain why he's now spending more time with receivers after practice). If he can acclimate to the speed the completions will come.
>>It's all conjecture, but if he's prioritizing getting the ball out quicker over waiting for a receiver to open up it could explain a lot of the ugly today because he's forcing himself out of his comfort zone. But that's encouraging because it's precisely the sort of exercise he needs to be doing (and could explain why he's now spending more time with receivers after practice). If he can acclimate to the speed the completions will come. <<
DeleteAbsolutely. It's a process. Gotta let it progress through training camp. Like judging a painting by the first 20 brush strokes.
In the for what it's worth section: Takeo Spikes on PFT said something most Tebow fans already know "Tebow has the ability to make the other players around him play at a much higher level"
ReplyDeleteThese & other attributes unfortunately cannot be seen in 7 on 7 drills whch have never been a strength in Tim's game. We didn't see reports of him holding the ball too long today but there were other reports I saw which said he would tuck the ball & run much more than the other QB's. I thought it was said in the context of he should not be doing that.
I'm all for getting his timing down & accuracy down with his recievers but tucking & running is a huge part of his game & is part of what makes him unique. I don't know of any other quarterback with the ability to run both in the open field & for short yardage like he can.
If he can master the passing with the running he will be able to beat teams in more ways than any other quarterback.
Another balanced article by Eliot Shorr-Parks of NJ.com. Worth the read. Eliot Shorr-Parks appears to be the good cop to Matt Lombardo's bad cop routine over at NJ.com.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/analysis_and_thoughts_on_tim_tebows_chance_at_maki.html
LOL, can't believe I didn't see this coming. The ESP-Lombardo dichotomy is entirely intentional and pre-planned. Brilliant on the part of NJ.com to cater to both strongly held points of view. Democrat and Republican. Coke and Pepsi. Almost like this is their profession.
DeleteESP is basically writing exactly what we want to hear at this stage. "Hey, the guy can throw fine, give him some time to learn the offense."
Good to see you posting again Ron Dog. It had been a while. Football aside.
DeleteIsn't it great that the first point of the article was that it was made known to the media Tebow would not be taking questions.
I would assume this decision was made by the team. I don't recall this ever happening before.
Trivia Sidebar: in training camp the Pats limited Tim to one media availability per practice week by designating him a star player as provided for in NFL media policy. Each team may have up to two such designees. I'm assuming the other one was Brady. As far as I can tell media policy for OTA's does not expressly accommodate a star player (defined as a player with unusually heavy media demands), but at the same time it is unclear whether all players must be made available to the press during this period. It's likely that policy technically says, yes, Tim must be made available on days that OTA's are open to the media, but my guess is that there's an unspoken understanding that if the press overwhelms him now the team will severely restrict access to him in the future. The Pats let the press have him for two to three minutes per week during training camp, a pittance that the Philly sports beat probably wants to avoid. Yesterday's Tim embargo, allowed or not, may have been CK's way of saying back off. It may also be an indication that Tim and coaches knew beforehand that Tim would be occupied with additional throwing drills after the conclusion of practice.
DeleteAll good points. Whatever the reasons were they sure contrasted with those images we saw of him running through the rain with his shirt off after practice.
DeleteThere is definetely no circus atmosphere that going to be perpetuated or tolerated.
Yeah, Ed. That's what I thought about that as well. Two side to the same story. To appease the both "markets" of the Tebow story. Really smart and kinda predictable. That's why I'm already fed up with Tebow stories. All that I really wish is to see and believe are my own two eyes. Sadly, I have to wait for another two months for that.
DeleteI think Sielski and McLane are dancing the same two-step at the Philly Inquirer.
DeleteHere is some practice video from yesterday. Watch the throws by Barkley (#2). Both sailed high and uncatchable, even for short throws. Those kind of balls get intercepted, especially over the middle of the field. Tim did not lead his receiver quite enough, but it was right in the gut. Admittedly too small a sample size to draw any conclusions from, but shows that Tim may not be the one with accuracy issues.
ReplyDeleteThe press is going to see and report what it wants to see and report. Lombardo's column, which drove yesterday's headlines, may as well have been written by Matt Barkley's mother.
DeleteIf I'm judging by his two throws, which are clear on the video, the one ball is far left and the other on is an automatic INT tip drill up the middle.
DeleteAnd to your point, Kathryn, I allowed myself to be provoked and I commented something in the lines of "wow, a three year system QB appears to look better than a two years off the street QB new in that system!?" with a casual "grow up, dude" on the side. Not my finest hour. :/
And we've now seen some throws from Tim on the short clips from reporters and I have to say that he looks night and day from the last time I saw him in training camp. NIGHT & DAY!
Now the press is apoplectic that Tim's jersey sales cracked the top 15. At some point these folks need to get over the fact that the man is popular.
DeleteI've been following this guy for several years. Just another dude with a blog (no offense intended, Ed) but this post basically corroborates what we've been saying over here. If this gap between the headlines and what's actually happening on the field keeps spreading the Lucy's in the press are eventually gonna have some s'plainin to do.
Deletehttp://www.fatmanwriting.com/2015/06/watch-philadelphia-eagles-qb-tim-tebow.html#.VW8xLkh85b0.twitter
Tim's going to be doing a radio interview tomorrow:
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/WIPMorningShow/status/606135163450486785
ESP delivers again. http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/eagles_see_no_technique_flaws_in_tim_tebow.html
ReplyDeleteGood stuff, but the dueling POVs from ESP and Lombardi are kind of bizzare. Here's Lombardi doubling down: http://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/tim_tebow_seems_to_be_trailing_matt_barkley_in_eag.html
Deleteit's like a personal competition and I don't think they're friends either in the workplace. just my hunch.
Delete^^ That's the one that's been circulating. What's encouraging is that coaches today publicly painted a very different portrait than the one Lombardo thought he was looking at.
Delete>>He is actually getting better every day," offensive coordinator Pat Shurmur said on Wednesday. "He works extremely hard. He is getting comfortable in what we do. He is having more good plays than bad plays out here. He is doing a very good job.<<
Delete>>He is working hard out here just like everyone out. He has some good throws, some throws he wants to get back," Day said. "But he is working hard to change his throwing motion, and every day he is getting better.<<
That's the OC and the quarterbacks coach both saying that TT's getting better every day.
>>I know he trained with (independent quarterback coach) Tom House recently," Shurmur said, "and we are trying to implement some of those things that keep his progress going.<<
Like getting rid of the ball faster, making quicker decisions, trusting his receivers - building on Tom House's foundation. My guess. Whatever the case I've never heard his coaches talk about him quite like this - as if they've got something to work with. Fingers crossed!
This video is a mixed bag of comments by Dave Spadaro, an Eagles "insider":
Deletehttp://cinesport.philly.com/philadelphia-sports/word-birds-quarterbacks-otas/
It is very discouraging to hear him describe the same mechanical issues Tim has shown in the past. That should not be happening, especially on pocket throws. This guy does not sound like a hater, and he allows for Tim "shaking off the rust", but how much rust could he have after 2 friggin' years with Tom House?
On the plus side, he says the roster decision between Barkley will be made based on results in preseason games, and he expects that Tim will look much better by then. He also emphasized Tim's mobility becoming more of a factor in the decision.
As best as I can tell, Spadaro is actually a member of the Eagles PR staff and runs their official website, so maybe he does have some actual insight into what the team thinks.
The video would not play for me but I am going to lean on what the coaches (Shurmur & Day said today).
DeleteWe have never heard coaches support Tim in this way before & I doubt they would be spending so much time working with & trying to improve upon what they have seen from Tim if they did not see a future for him with the team.
It's kind of silly really when you think about it that so much attention would be paid to a perspective 3rd string quarterback. How many 3rd string quarterbacks are described as being ultra competitive & wanting to win at everything especially having the ball in his hands & wanting to win.
Futhermore I read an account recently that said the change in the Eagles culture was vastly different than it has been in years past & that change was highly noticeable from people who have followed the team. I also read another account that said Tim was becoming one of the more popular players in the locker room already.
Was it a coincidence 1st stringers stayed to throw with him yesterday? Is it possible his intangibles are already rubbing off & making their mark on the team?
I don't know. But I want to think so.
Update: The video played for me. It was a little discouraging to hear about the errant throws but overall I thought they were bullish on his prospects.
DeleteI try not to put too much stock in the coaches comments. Coaches, just like players, are practiced at speaking happy platitudes to deflect media attention from real issues. At this stage in the process, it is all about encouragement and team building. Everyone is working hard, showing improvement, rah rah. Bill Belichick was similarly complimentary of Tim during training camp.
DeleteWhen the rubber meets the road in August, the decision will be made on production in preseason games, not on who works hard or who has improved the most. Miss Congeniality is not a roster spot.
Re: Ed's post
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, this is the actual tweet from a two days ago by him:
Dave Spadaro @davespadaro Jun 2
Dave Spadaro retweeted Gustavo Machado
Have seen one practice. Looked OK. Tough to see, honestly. No grades until preseason games, OK? Dave Spadaro added,
Gustavo Machado @gustaavomachado
@davespadaro Dave, can you talk some news about @TimTebow's perfomance? #EaglesBrasil
But let me ask you Ed, you have now seen some videos from various sources and angles, what do your eyes tell you? From what I've seen, Tim does not have his usually wound up from bellow his waist, his ball is always close to his body, and although he has a recognizable "click" when transferring the ball up around 3/4 of the motion, it does not slow down his release. Until someone times it, like those ESPN Sports Science guys comparing it to let's say Brady, I'm not buying anyone's "assertions". Different people have different agendas, and if I have learned something about journalism being on twitter for the past couple of years, it's that journalists are subjective for various reasons and when it comes to Tim, that's amplified even more and more than just the play on field goes into equation.
So, yeah. If I was them I would hold my breath for another two months before sounding super smart and convicted that Tim is the same old player he was before.
Josip,
DeleteMy eyes tell me the same thing yours do. He definitely looks better. More compact and balanced, without the huge windup and big step. Basically he got rid of the baseball pitcher's motion.
However, a few caveats:
1. We've only seen very limited video, and none from 7v7 or 11v11. Remember that Tim's previous makeovers failed because he reverted to his old form under pressure. Until we see Tim under true pressure, we don't know what will happen.
2. How Tim's form looks is ultimately irrelevant. What matters are results, and specifically accuracy. Does the ball go where he intends for it to go? In fact, we'd all probably be better off if the video blurred out the quarterback and all we could see was the ball from the time it left his hand.
3. Tim has always been able to throw well ... sometimes. His problem has been CONSISTENCY. For some reason, he went through periods where his mechanics broke down and the ball came out wildly high or low, or not spinning properly. Maybe it was only one or two out of every ten throws, but it was enough for coaches to lose confidence in his ability to execute the plays they called. House was supposed to fix that. There are now enough reports using the term "inconsistent", including from the coaches, that it worries me greatly.
Bottom line, we are probably not going to get the insight we seek until August. When the preseason games start, we'll all learn the answer together, reporters and fans alike.
One thing I will say I like to hear: a lot of reporters are starting to murmur about the effect his clearly superior athletic ability will have. Chip's offense is designed for an athletic QB, and the system won't reach full potential without one. The thoughtful media folks understand that and are intrigued to see what Tim can do in a system similar to the one he dominated college football with. The preseason games could be a revelation in that regard.
First of, I should really proof read before I post. Sorry for that.
Deletewhile I mostly agree with all your points, I too share your healthy skepticism about his consistency mostly from the place that he has not shown it yet. Also, I would like to mention that Tim is not getting the benefit of the doubt at all, it's like he's playing from behind, like it's a soccer match and every one else starts at 0:0 but Tim for some reason is already 2 goals behind.
I will say this much though. When "they're" talking about Tim's play, it's all about his inconsistencies and lack of accuracy. But when we're hearing let's say about Barkley, it's some throws he left on the field, or throws he would like to have back or he missed his target. The narrative is what kills me.
ps I really love this little gathering of ours. Thank you, Ed, for making this place possible so the reasonable covering can occur and I get to read what smarter people than me think about things I care about. Best!
I've done nothing but dump my thoughts on the internet, which is a fundamentally narcissistic activity. But I am pleased that you smart folks have chosen this as a destination for reasoned discourse on this subject. Most internet forums are mental wastelands of confirmation bias and logical fallacies, so it's gratifying to have a place to go where people genuinely attempt to think through why they feel the way they do.
DeleteI participated in a similar forum for about 10 years that touched on a variety of topics. However, discussion eventually veered into politics, and the whole thing collapsed in hostility and hurt feelings. So I'm not going there with this one. We're sticking to all things Tim.
As an aside, Josip, is English your native language? I ask, because I genuinely cannot tell. If it is not, then your proficiency is extraordinary.
>>I will say this much though. When "they're" talking about Tim's play, it's all about his inconsistencies and lack of accuracy. But when we're hearing let's say about Barkley, it's some throws he left on the field, or throws he would like to have back or he missed his target. The narrative is what kills me.<<
DeleteI agree that this is particularly frustrating. Some of these guys couldn't be more transparent right now, but it is what it is. For the sake of your sanity just bear in mind that you're reading material that is no more objective and no less opinionated than a bunch of trash talk at the local pub. And it has just about as much influence on the outcome.
>>Coaches, just like players, are practiced at speaking happy platitudes to deflect media attention from real issues.<<
I agree with this in general but that's not at all what I picked up from Shurmur and Day yesterday. While they did oblige with the requisite platitudes regarding his competitiveness they also used language that I haven't heard from other coaches before: "He is actually getting better every day", "He's getting comfortable in what we do", "He's doing a very good job." Those aren't platitudes. They may be short on details but they're status reports, and we can gather from them that the coaches a.) see that he's learning the offense and more importantly b.) is getting better as he learns the offense.
At any rate it's all academic until we actually see him run the offense in live games. To the extent that reports of wild passes, inconsistencies, or holding the ball too long are discouraging I'm trying to keep the big picture in mind. Right now we are at the most unstable stage in this process. For the first time he is putting his new throwing motion under cognitive duress; and while we'd all prefer a scenario in which those mechanics hold up perfectly on every single drill it's an unrealistic expectation, especially when you look at guys two years into this offense overthrowing their receivers by a mile. All of that should tighten up again with time. Let him learn the offense and then decide whether his rate of errant passes is fatal. And on that note remember that his dyslexia will have no greater impact on his decision making than right now. I hesitate to make the point because he personally does not want to project dyslexia as a disadvantage, but believe me it is as relevant to his progress as Sam Bradford's wimpy-ass knee is to his. Once his body and brain agree on what the offense looks like he's going to process a lot of decisions more fluidly and we'll have a better benchmark from which to evaluate his progress. Bottom line, the only judges that matter right now are reporting that everything's moving in the right direction. If all they had to say was "He's an outstanding football player" then I wouldn't be as encouraged.
Re Ed:
DeleteAs an aside, Josip, is English your native language? I ask, because I genuinely cannot tell. If it is not, then your proficiency is extraordinary.
Noh. I'm a Croat and by default my first language is Croatian. I think I saw somewhere you mentioned that you served in Bosnia so you probably have a clue how different it is from English. English is my second language and German is my third.
Ed: I really appreciate what you wrote above in your comments. I hope I am one of folks you were alluding to which have chosen this blog as a destination to have a rationed discourse on this most fascinating of topics.
DeleteThis is really the only blog I commnet on regularly precisely because of what you said about most forums being mental wastelands. Most of the time I find the discussions on other blogs & forums more annoying than they are enlightening.
I have learned more about football & the machinations involved from reading this blog than I have in all my years as a football fan which go back to the early days of Don Shula's Dolphins.
Although sometimes all us come at this from differing views the content here is always mentally stimulating & thought provoking. I hope in some way I have been able to add a little bit to those conversations as well.
I agree with Joslips assesments our our little gathering place & I also want to give a nod to Kathryn who in my view has been writing some really inspired commentary lately.
Bob, Absolutely!
DeleteJosip, yes I did serve in Bosnia. I also studied Russian full time for 6 months in the Army. Before I went to Bosnia I took a one month transition course in Serbo-Croatian, the theory being it was so similar to Russian that it would be easy to learn, but I did not find that to be true. I also speak some Spanish and German, but the words from all those languages get jumbled up in my head. I wish I had just concentrated on one.
Meanwhile a little perspective courtesy of our friends in Foxborough...
ReplyDelete>>So, 5 of Garoppolo's final 31 passes were INT'd. 2 were deflections. 1 was batted at the line. 2 were just poor throws.<<
Speaks for itself.
Source: https://twitter.com/jeffphowe/status/606514640407949312?lang=en
Now imagine the "sh*t storm" of enlightened comments if someone else *cough cough* did that.
DeleteHeard a good podcast this morning from Bob Grotz. He says that he is hearing good things about Tim from the other players. They have a lot of respect for his work ethic and are impressed by how much he has accomplished to get back into the league. Grotz feels Tim will find a way to make the roster.
ReplyDeleteI agree Ed. I just listened to that podcast with Grotz this morning. Pretty amazing really to witness the shift in attitude by the press, in aggregate, this time around.
ReplyDeleteHere's the entire radio interview Tebow did with Angelo Cataldi on the 94WIP Morning Show:
http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2015/06/04/tebow-coach-kelly-has-been-able-to-change-football/
I've always felt Tim would be a good fit with Philly fans. They love that whole underdog Rocky thing, and value toughness, determination, and grit. Since local media reflects the market, I'm not at all surprised to see him becoming a favorite.
DeleteBrian Dawkins, recently voted the most popular Eagles player ever, played the same way as Tim: with passion and total commitment. And it doesn't hurt that Dawkins continues to express admiration for Tim
I remember during their time in Denver Dawkins along with Champ Bailey & Von Miller were very supportive of Tim.
DeleteI haven't heard any recent comments from Dawkins concerning Tim. How does he feel about Tim's being on the Eagles?? Have you heard anything??
Here is what Dawkins said when Tebow was signed.
DeleteDug into one of the main guys saying Tim was inaccurate on Tuesday, @GeoffMosherCSN. Here is what he tweetedwhen pressed further:
ReplyDelete"A lot of bad passes. behind targets or way ahead of them. reluctance to pull trigger at times in 7s."
To me, that is an illustration of exactly what is wrong with the coverage of him now. Those are not mechanics-related problems. They are clearly timing and decision-making issues, which are to be expected after being out of football for 2 full years.
If that is the case, we should see steady improvement as he works with actual NFL receivers again, and gets a feel for their speed and movement.
Monday will be interesting, but I am really withholding judgement until mini-camp next Tues-Thurs, 16-18 June. That will give us a much larger sample size of throws to consider, and he will have had the full OTA period to learn the system and shake off the rust. Ought to see progress by then.
I totally agree with this assesment. I am mostly looking forward to seeing Tim be able to put his full skill set on display rather than just on specific drills. I believe we will see him begin to seperate himself from the other Quarterbacks when we see him combine all his skills at once.
Deletewow, Brady Quinn had some nice things to say about Tim...
ReplyDeletehttps://soundcloud.com/siriusxmnfl/brady-quinn-thinks-sam-bradford-and-tim-tebow-will-excel-in-a-new-environment
Maybe I'm jaded but that sounds like the same old passive aggressive crap from Brady. Compliments Tim on the hard work and improvement, then goes on and on about how hard it will be for Tim not to revert to his old form under pressure. Thanks Brady ... buddy is only half the word.
DeleteYep, sure sounded familiar didn't it Ed? 'Ol Brady started to fall back into that same 'passive-aggressive' mode you've characterized; but, I actually think he sounded a little different this time. His new approach may be directly related to his current NFL roster odds.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone ever read or hear where Quinn apologized or further explained his reasons for writing the article on Tebow just prior to the NFL Veteran Combine? I doubt it exists; but, hope he received some flak or schooling for that bonehead move.
Looks like we'll get some extra coverage this week. According to NJ.com, both Monday and Tuesday practices are open to the media.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/live_updates_on_sam_bradford_tim_tebow_during_eagl.html
They are allowing cameras in also. We should get alot more footage to look at.
DeleteQuick Take: The usual suspects to no surprise covered Tim as negatively as they possibly could, but even they had to concede that he thus far had his best practice today. A couple of bad passes and dirt burners, but also quite a few good passes, a couple of TD passes and of course he blew the rest of the QB stable away when it came to running and mobility. That kind of progress is what we're looking for.
DeleteHere's a representative tweet from an objective reporter. Seek out guys like this and ignore the clowns.
Deletehttps://twitter.com/PressACWeinberg/status/607978289634885632
Addmitedly my thinking is biased in Tim's favor & who knows what his coaches may be thinking but I have to believe that a stalemate in practice has to favor Tim.
DeleteHe just has too much upside to consider with his experience & his intangibles.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteSome progress today even from critics like @MattLombardo975:
Delete"All 4 #Eagles QBs looked sharp today. Bradford locked in. Barkley sharp. Tebow had best practice we've seen, still looks a long way's off."
From @MarkEckel08
ReplyDeletehttp://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/tim_tebow_just_keeps_getting_better_every_day_at_e.html
Couldn't buy a better headline than that. Exactly what we want to see. Progress.
DeleteHere's another one:
Deletehttp://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2015/06/08/tim-tebow-is-improving-every-day/#.VXX6agUYwMg.twitter
I have one thing to add. From what I have read today, seems like Tim made a nice step towards a roster spot. Even Jeff McLane, the one that does not hesitate to paint it as badly as possible, conceived today that Tim had a good day. By his standards. By our standards it would be good/great day.
DeleteAgreed. He certainly took a nice step toward making it a competition. The discussion point that's emerging now is not that MB has it locked up, but rather what does CK want out of his QB3 - a pocket passer or a runner? That suggests that the media, in the aggregate, is concluding that TT is a viable option after all - provided of course that he remains on this trajectory of gradual improvement.
DeleteHere's a nugget from ESP's latest write-up that I found really intriguing:
ReplyDelete>>Quarterbacks: At the beginning of each practice the Eagles have their quarterbacks throw a baseball into a net, a drill that Tebow did over the past two years to work on his throwing motion. Offensive coordinator Pat Shurmur mentioned last week that the team has incorporated some of Tebow's drills that helped him fix his throwing motion, and the baseball drill is one of them.<<
Hard not to interpret that as an endorsement of the work Tom House did with him, and further confirmation that his improvement isn't just some figment of wishful thinking imagination.
www.philadelphiaeagles.com/tebow/enjoying/the/process
ReplyDeleteI got the feeling from this interview that he feels really comfortable with this offense & is really enjoying it. Most importantly he gave me the impression that he is really comfortable there personally I got the feeling he senses the coaches really like him & want him there.
It has to feel gratifying after those days in Denver & NY.
The link didn't work for me. Is this the interview?
Deletehttp://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/videos/videos/Tebow-Trusting-The-Process/416be416-dc5c-4f50-a297-bce558ecdbd3
Did the Pats let him do interviews like this and then post them to their website? I don't recall.
Yes that's the one. I thought I noticed in the tone of his voice & the inflections in his speech how at ease he is with what he is doing. Like is said before I think he has alot more confidence in the coaches support than he has had previously.
DeleteI vaguely remember him talking in New England but not much.
What did you think of the interview?? Did you get the same impressions that I did???
Yes I think a similar impression. Thing is with him he's always had a lot of perspective on things. Now more than ever that seems to be the case. He has a remarkable talent for enjoying life in spite of the counterproductive influence of negative people, an attitude that would make him a billionaire if he could bottle it. But to your point yes he seems to be particularly leavened by this experience. He's really enjoying himself, and that may be in part because he's more comfortable with his coaches, teammates, this offense, his skillset, and so on.
DeleteTangentially, it strikes me as people pontificate on how these guys are going to do under pressure that Tim is already under a great deal of pressure. He's fighting for a job out there while the world has him under a microscope. That's pressure. It would seem the mental leap to preseason games isn't going to be all that big when the time comes, if you get my meaning.
Yes I think I do get your meaning he is under a tremendous amount of pressure & has been pretty much his whole NFL career. Pressure that would have broken alot of others.
DeleteAfter the Jets experience he could have easily run & hidden & called it a career. Then he took another blow to his pride by getting cut in New England. Only to come back for more now with the Eagles. He has something inside of him that is reserved for only the rarest of athletes. Ali,& Jordan are 2 that come to mind.
As to your point about the preseason for most the there would be somewhat of a leap but if I am reading this correctly for him it may actually have the opposite effect & be more of a relief.
I just think while the other quarterbacks are expected (and expect of themselves) to acquit themselves well and get the most out of OTA's and training camp, TT just to compete has to expect himself to play his absolute best and push himself every single day in order to catch up and keep up. And though he's lagging in these early drills he's still hanging in there and making progress. I don't know that he will necessarily feel relief when the preseason games start (stoked is more like it) but it just seems that the added weight of performing in live games isn't going to be all that much heavier than what he's dealing with now. [Or maybe I'm just projecting all the stomach-twisting anxiety that I'm experiencing right now on his behalf :-D ]
DeleteI believe that Tim needs an abnormal amount of pressure to perform at his peak. That's why he is such a poor practice player, and why Tebow Time became a thing.
DeleteI also think that Tim's athletic advantages will be accentuated when the hitting starts.
Another one:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theintell.com/sports/bradford-tebow-take-some-positive-steps-at-ota/article_30b42989-7551-544a-8e44-02b89dca3110.html
Eloot Shore-Parks really likes Tim:
Deletehttp://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/10_things_ive_learned_about_tim_tebow_since_he_sig.html
Too much goodness to keep up with! Timmaaay's havin' a good day!
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/EliotShorrParks/status/608332931925471232
https://twitter.com/EliotShorrParks/status/608333029837316096
https://twitter.com/GarryCobb/status/608333613806055425
https://twitter.com/BrandonGowton/status/608333073189597185
https://twitter.com/Mfranknfl/status/608333406838112256
https://twitter.com/JClarkCSN/status/608333361489321984
https://twitter.com/NickFierro/status/608333165250387970
Even Lombardo was complimentary. Bizzarely though, in his wrapup ESP says he had a bad day:
Delete"Tebow had one of his roughest days during these OTAs. While his throwing motion looks improved, and his release is quicker, Tebow has struggled with consistently delivering accurate passes. That was an issue again on Tuesday, when he threw the ball right into the ground while trying to hit a receiver in the flat."
Saw that and the usual suspects are on him like a pack of dogs. He's been getting dinged for leaning too positive on Tebow, maybe he's just unconsciously adjusting to that, or whatever. At any rate I really wish people would just chill out when one reporter strays from the prevailing message because all that matters is the prevailing message. Bottom line: Tim had a great day today, with nearly all reporters noting solid to vast improvement over last week. My favorite observation is that he's getting more decisive. Music to my ears. Keep it coming, Tim.
DeleteHate to say it but I can see why people don't like Tebow fans. Some of us are nuts.
DeleteIt's worth noting we saw a similar trajectory over the course of Pats camp. Crucially, Tim is going through the process in OTAs this time around, so he should be up to speed when it comes time to compete.
Yes, I feel like it has been Tim's best day yet. There is no reason the trajectory should not point only up from now on. He might have "worse" days, but it sounds like he's building a nice foundation for future success.
DeleteHe's won one over...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/sports/local/eagles/weinberg-tim-tebow-deserves-a-spot-on-eagles/article_9f0b752b-3aaf-598f-9db0-27fc1d781cfc.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Good stuff!
Delete"This is my 23rd season as the The Press' Eagles beat writer. And with the possible exception of Brian Dawkins, Tim Tebow is the most honest, sincere, grounded, grateful player I've ever encountered."
Another convert at NJ.com
ReplyDelete"If we're choosing up sides, and I don't care what we're playing, and I can choose Tim Tebow or Matt Barkley, I'm taking Tebow every time. Every. Time. Preseason performance will go a long way in determining the Eagles' No. 3 quarterback, but what can Barkley do better than Tebow?"
Another convert at NJ.com
ReplyDelete"If we're choosing up sides, and I don't care what we're playing, and I can choose Tim Tebow or Matt Barkley, I'm taking Tebow every time. Every. Time. Preseason performance will go a long way in determining the Eagles' No. 3 quarterback, but what can Barkley do better than Tebow?"
Another convert at NJ.com
ReplyDelete"If we're choosing up sides, and I don't care what we're playing, and I can choose Tim Tebow or Matt Barkley, I'm taking Tebow every time. Every. Time. Preseason performance will go a long way in determining the Eagles' No. 3 quarterback, but what can Barkley do better than Tebow?"
Three times for emphasis :-)
ReplyDeleteBrady Quinn being a douchebag again, on a podcast from 5 May. Comments on Tim start at 26:40 and last about 10 minutes. It is clear that Brady has lingering resentment towards Tim, and that he sided with Orton at Denver. The kind of shitty part was Ryan Hawk chiming in.
ReplyDeleteI'll take your word for it. Not all that interested in giving him ten minutes of my day. Apparently neither was Chip Kelly.
DeleteProbably wise.
DeleteNFL mini-camp rules. More or less the same as OTAs, but longer.
ReplyDeletePer the norm. We are getting conflicting accounts from practice. But if my ears don't decieve me I think in Tim's case the good is far out weighing the bad.
ReplyDeleteThe Good:
1) He is showing the progress we have been hoping to see.
2) His upside is much higher than the others.
3) He gives them more versatility.
The Bad:
1) He is still taking snaps with the 4th string.
Hopefully this does not signify anything at this point.
As silly as it is to tease through these day-by-days I'm nevertheless gonna do it because scales are fun.
DeleteOn a scale of 1 - 10, 10 being the best, it sounds like TT had maybe a 6 or 7 day with a sprinkling of 8's in the mix. Not bad not great, but he did have a chance to impress some reporters with his (keyword) versatility. It seems that consistency still remains the biggest obstacle at this point, and what can we say on that issue other than only time will tell?
It sounds like Barkley had an underwhelming to bad day today. He was hardly reported on other than some bad short passes.
ESP's latest, plus he has an interesting exchange with one of the commenters.
Deletehttp://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/eagles_tim_tebow_says_he_can_see_a_difference_with.html
The commentary we have been getting from Tim & some of his teammates has beeen very encouraging. IMO it goes further than the usual happy talk we get this time of year. I could be wrong but I believe Tim sounds alot more confident now & even more humble & appreciative than ever before. Being out of the league for those two years may have helped him gather himself after the experience in NY.
DeleteWe'll see what happens come preseason.
Making the team in any capacity would be a fantastic accomplishment. I wonder though how the team would be able to utilize the versatility he offers if he was a 3rd quarterback. Hopefully he will play well enough in the preseason to make that a moot point.
This transcript of CK's remarks this morning is beyond encouraging. Remember this when a reporter tweets about an incompletion as if it spells doomsday for Tim.
Deletehttp://www.nj.com/eagles/index.ssf/2015/06/chip_kelly_says_tim_tebow_is_improving_at_eagles_m.html
Couple of critics noting that receivers are causing him problems.
Deletehttps://twitter.com/NickFierro/status/611206860956303361
https://twitter.com/MattLombardo975/status/611206590004391936
All along I have been trying to be restrained in my commentary so as to not get ahead of events or open the door to being let down again.
DeleteBased on those comments from Kellly there is alot of hope for optimism this time around. My favorite & I think most telling of the quotes is "we are really looking forward to seeing what he does in camp". This sounds to me like they have if not definitive plans at least rough ideas as to what they want to do with Tim.
Kelly used the word "excited also". That says alot.
DeleteI love this quote: >>"But each week you've seen an incremental bump and then some."<<
DeleteI also love that he pointed out that some of the perceived difficulties have been due to working with rookie receivers, and that he reminded reporters that Sanchez had problems at this stage in the process as well.
>>"we are really looking forward to seeing what he does in camp". This sounds to me like they have if not definitive plans at least rough ideas as to what they want to do with Tim.<<
My feeling as well.
http://www.thereporteronline.com/sports/20150617/tebow-working-to-find-his-niche-with-eagles
DeleteMark Gary Cobb and Mike Mayock down as believers.
Deletehttp://gcobb.com/2015/06/18/mike-mayock-expects-tim-tebow-to-be-here/
Mayock was at practice yesterday, so we might get some direct commentary from him on NFL network. He's very well respected, unbiased, and has watched Tim closely throughout his career. If Mike says Tim is a better passer now, we can take that to the bank.
So, OTAs are over. Time to take a break for 6 weeks. Training camp starts on Aug 2nd, with the Eagles first game on Aug 22.
ReplyDeleteIt's hard to know what to think of his chances coming out of OTAs. On the negative side, it is apparent that Tim still has problems being accurate on a consistent basis. His release, while faster and cleaner than it used to be, is still slow compared to other QBs. His decision-making is also slow, though some of that is obviously attributable to being new to the system. Sam Bradford is also new to the system, however, but does not appear to struggle with decisions like Tim, so I'm afraid to say that some of the struggles are just Tim being Tim.
We hoped that Tim would be a totally different QB after 18 months with Tom House, and that he would blow everyone away with his passing. He did not. It would be fair to say that Tim's improvement is incremental, not game-changing. It remains to be seen if that will be enough.
On the plus side, Tim's athletic ability clearly impresses even his detractors, and he is in one of the NFL systems most optimized to take advantage of that ability. The coaches have been calling a lot of running plays with Tim. I think they are intrigued to see what his size, agility, and durability can do in their system.
Just on passing in OTAs, Tim is still probably not good enough to beat out Barkley, let alone Sanchez or Bradford. However, football games are not played in shorts and red "do not hit" jerseys. Football games are played with large, angry men trying to rip the QB's head off on every play. The league is littered with Blaine Gabberts, who look like pro bowlers during practice drills but curl up into a ball when they get hit. OTA's are not where Tim shines. Games are where Tim shines.
I think it comes down to this: Kelly wants to see what Tim can do in a game. That is what preseason games are for. If his passing has improved enough that he is a dual threat, not just a running threat, then he will make the roster. If Tim cannot move the ball in the air during the preseason, then he's done.
Try not to get too worked up about the prognostications that will undoubtedly hit the internet over the next few days. It's all BS until the whistle blows on August 22nd. Then we'll see.
>>We hoped that Tim would be a totally different QB after 18 months with Tom House, and that he would blow everyone away with his passing. He did not. It would be fair to say that Tim's improvement is incremental, not game-changing. It remains to be seen if that will be enough.<<
DeleteI never expected Tim to be a whole new quarterback with his passing, though I did expect his passing to improve enough to give Pat Shurmur the confidence to pull the trigger where Tony Sparano holstered the weapon. Based on what we've seen so far, incremental improvement may very well be enough. He's at the very least going in the right direction. It's clear he's got a hold of Chip Kelly's imagination, which was an obstacle that we may not have fully considered at the outset. Think about it: the conclusion of minicamp is a natural demarcation point. Had he not given the coaches something to work with he'd be in Terrelle Pryor's shoes right now, but instead we've got the head coach publicly excited to see what he can do in training camp. That alone is a win in my eyes. Now onto the next hurdle.
I would have preferred a better performance in minicamp, absolutely, but taking all factors into account it wasn't bad. Yes he struggled with consistency, and while it remains a concern I think it's been overemphasized a bit by the press. Based on CK's statements he and the other coaches are taking all variables into account: newness to the system, rookie receivers, and the fact that Barkley, while capable, brings nothing to the table but a slightly better arm, more familiarity with the system, and the mobility of a walrus. Even taking into account the "sailed passes" and whatnot more than a few professional observers are now speculating with caution that this disparity - the mobility delta - is what's going to carry Tim into the regular season. If they're willing to go that far the bad passes are either outliers or at least on some level explicable. [Unless your Lombardo, in which case you view any of Tebow's reps as a waste of time ;-) ]
But you're right: it's all about the games. Chip needs to see him make the plays against opposing defenders. In the meantime I hope he spends this hiatus working out with teammates and also doing some tuneup work with House. And of course studying the playbook. I look forward to watching training camp unfold, and think we'll get our first substantial glimpses of what live play might look like when they hold joint practices with the Ravens. I'm also looking forward to this break, because this is all really nerve wracking. By August 22 I might be in a mental institution with a nervous condition.
While not in the classic style. Tim's throwing is just different than the other Quarterbacks but that doesn't mean it has to be any less effective especially in games. Judging his play by the standards held for most other quarterbacks is a disservice to his unique abilities. Holding onto the ball a little longer than the others rather than forcing a pass could be just a byproduct of his ability to keep his interception rate low & his surveying the field a little longer while he decides what to do. His ability to throw while on the move rather than in standing in the pocket is also an under reported aspect to his game.
DeleteTim is a unique quarterback & hopefully the coaches will take the inconsistency in practice as "Tim just being Tim" into account in their evaluations.
Bradford, Sanchez, & Barkley each have their weaknesses as well the most glaring being their lack of keeping the defense honest with thier ability to run. As we know Tim is the only one that can do that.
All that being said it will be up to him to show what he can do in the preseason. Hopefully he will get opportunities with the 1st & 2nd string. Only then will it be a legitimate evaluation.
Here's what Chip has to say:
Delete"Off-season program - we don't put a lot of stock in terms of making real solid evaluations of where they are. It's about them working and getting better, trying to figure out your strengths and weaknesses, come when we actually put the pads on. Because to make those assessments now is not fair."
Re
DeleteKathryn: "I'm also looking forward to this break, because this is all really nerve wracking. By August 22 I might be in a mental institution with a nervous condition."
This. I am rarely a fan boy, most because I played my sport professionally and I never get star struck with players playing in any sport. But this TT thing has become so intense for me, it's like I'm living his fight for a roster spot myself. I went even that far by having a weird dream the other day about it. In short: Tim started a game for the Eagles and by the end of the game every QB in the NFL came replaced him on the field. Yeah, not disturbing at all. LOL
Also, one point to make. MS struggled last season just like TT is doing now. Chip probably sees it more fairly than your standard Lombardy asshole journalist. The thing that is good to hear is that Tim has plays where he scores TD's in practices even with 3rd and 4th string WR's. We all agreed that if he can make those guys make plays on the ball, he'll have a good chance to make the team.
Ed made a great point and I always agree with this about live play in practice. 90% of QB's look great in 7 on 7. 10% of QB's look great in games. 5% of QB's look great while getting hit constantly. Everyone saying MS had a great half a season with Eagles, but he had 14 TO's to 14 TD's and had a 4 and 4 record that he clearly had an influence in costing his team a playoff spot.
I hope Tim sticks his head into his Playbook and has it memorized by letter and page smell till TC starts. He will need it.
>>Football games are played with large, angry men trying to rip the QB's head off on every play.<<
Delete>>5% of QB's look great while getting hit constantly.<<
And in TT we've got the oddball QB that likes to do the hitting.
My favorite quote from Chip today:
ReplyDelete"The best players are always going to play, its not fair to the other players if the best guys aren't playing, its not fair to the staff, it's not fair to the city".
This is a guy with the big picture in mind & his only concern is whats best for his team.
Another point I heard about Tim not from Chip which I never really thought of is how the combination of his athleticism, physicality & competitve nature can wear a team down over 4 quarters. (Part of the intangible package he brings).
Video compilation of Tim from OTAs:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15nYLoI_Xsw&feature=youtu.be
One point I will make, and you can clearly see it when you look it carefully. Go to about 0:43 and watch the release speed. He has the same release as MS. It's a different stroke, and WHATEVER, but the speed is there.
DeleteMake no mistake he's got all the working parts. He's got arm strength, he's got a quick release, he's got accuracy. What he doesn't have is consistency. He doesn't package all those working parts into a good pass as often or with the consistency that Mark or the other quarterbacks do. But...he's better than he was, and so there's no reason to believe he can't get better still.
DeleteBut it bugs me to read the stuff that's being written in the sense that I start questioning what I'm seeing.
DeleteGood point by Kathryn, as usual. Tim will continue to see significant improvement as he learns the offense and shakes off the rust. Barkley is probably as good as he is going to get.
DeleteMalcom Jenkins is good people.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.usatoday.com/videos/sports/nfl/eagles/2015/06/19/28987155/?utm_source=feedblitz&utm_medium=FeedBlitzRss&utm_campaign=usatodaycomnfl-topstories
Could Chip still be considering a deal for Marriota!?
ReplyDeleteS.nj.com/gAm94qi a Bob Eckel piece.
This is intriguing.
That would be truly bizarre on multiple levels. Until I see some kind of reliable evidence that this is genuine, I'm going to put it in the same category of speculation as space aliens kidnapping Elvis. :)
DeleteBut space aliens *did* kidnap Elvis! I read it in the Enquirer.
Delete:-D
Here's another reporter who has become a fan.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/sports/some-things-learned-during-eagles-spring-training/article_e8d3143e-c977-5b8a-9838-9092c8850d5a.html
This article illustrates the perils of relying on some media accounts. Lombardi described Tim's final TD pass to close out minicamp as "wobbly". But what he didn't describe were the circumstances. Tim rolled right and threw a pass to the back left corner of the end zone. For a left handed QB, that is a ridiculously hard throw.
Oh, that was a nice thing to read. One thing that is encouraging is that he's making those plays in practice. We all know the practice history and Tim. That he is making those plays in practice and not drawing "HE IS CONSTANTLY HORRIBLE AND LAUGHABLE" is a big improvement on his part. The constant improvement through practices is even bigger plus.
DeleteI did a little research on what was reported about MS last OTA & MC. You're gonna have to believe on my word because it's really demanding to get all the quotes out:
- he was struggling, didn't know where to go with the ball, looked down right lost out there, were behind Barkley in so many aspects in the practice and didn't look like a player that would play any significant time in that system.
So yeah, I'm not worrying about Tim at all. Can't wait for those preseason games.
An unrelated comment: it is difficult to work with someone who has zero personal integrity or ethics, and is driven solely by greed.
ReplyDeleteIt's sort of related. Tim has worked with a few similar individuals throughout his experience in the NFL :-D
DeleteI hope Captain Greedy's ship sails on by.
Since it's slow I thought I'd opine a bit on a sawdust filler topic.
ReplyDeleteAs you probably know by now Giants' punter Steve Weatherford took some shots at pretty much all of the Eagles' quarterbacks; including, obviously, Tim. Look, this is generally not a big deal. I mean, we're talking about a division rival letting loose with a little trash talk on sports radio. A guy's gotta have amazingly thin skin to let that bother him; and I doubt that Bradford, Sanchez or Tebow gave it a second's thought (in fact I'm sure Tebow by now could sell instructional DVD's on how to ignore that sort of thing). In other words, mustering outrage over it would be an embarrassing exercise.
That said, there is an element of it that bothers me, and that bothers me every time it happens. Frequently, when some coach or player trashes Tim, they'll first try to qualify their criticism or insult with some canned observation about what a great guy he is, how just how VERY much he respects him, yadda yadda. At least a couple times this has already happened this year:
Weatherford: “I’m the biggest Tim Tebow fan in the world. I mean, who wouldn’t want their daughter to date a guy like that? I’ll tell you what, I don’t want him taking snaps for my team.”
Jay Feely: "He's such a dichotomy for me. Because I really respect the person, the man, the things that he believes in and the things he does off the field. He was the single-worst quarterback I ever saw in my career in the NFL."
(There was another columnist as well, a former player, who pulled the same trick, but I couldn't find a link.)
But what invariably happens when these guys do this? The media gets a hold of it and it turns into a cyclonic sh*tstorm involving a bunch of Tim's ultra-sensitive fans hurling insults toward the player, who turns around and gets all defensive then pulls the "I'm being attacked" card. Then they cite the "I respect him SO much segment of their trashpliment (my made-up conjunction of trash-talk-in-a-compliment) as some sort of ostensible proof that they're not assholes. It. Never. Fails. Weatherford is doing it *right* *now*.
If I were Queen of the World this would be my decree:
1. If you're going to be an a*shole on talk radio, own it. Don't pretend you're some benign, aww-shucks guy that means no harm by planting some boilerplate faux admiration in front of your insult. Tim is your rival. He's struggling. You want to trash him so bad, then trash him. And then suck up whatever blowback you get, which brings me to the next decree...
2. Sign a mental cyclonic sh*tstorm waiver every time you open your mouth on talk radio about Tim Tebow. Don't act all surprised that the media picked up on your insult and blew it into a personal diss on a galactic scale. He's Tim Tebow for Christ's sake, ESPN and the NFL Network report everything from his helmet size to his allergies. You think they're gonna pass up the opportunity to generate a week's worth of clicks with one tweet because you're too dumb to conjure "no comment" out of your vocabulary? And finally...
3. If you *really* respect the guy as you claim - for the reasons that you claim - then pause and ask yourself if it's really worth it to your pride and ego to insult and degrade him in public. I've said many times that he can take it; he's a big boy, but that's not the point. The man is the embodiment of kindness and perseverance. He is chasing a dream; and he struggles, but he doesn't quit. And he does it with a lot of grace. He represents a lot of folks out there who are chasing their own dreams, big and small, grand and simple, and they struggle too. Is it so shocking that they take it personally when you step on his neck with your boot? And is it really so shocking that they would question your respect for a guy when, instead of encouraging him, you use him to get a couple of cheap laughs? Just a thought.
Well said as always, Kathryn.
DeleteWell I tried, LOL. Thanks
DeleteSorry, been wrapped up in other stuff. ITA. The master of the backhanded insult is Brady Quinn, BTW.
DeleteTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEBBBBBBBBBBBBBOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ReplyDelete10 days before the TC!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBaYVo89mmY
Big time excited. I'm purposely ignoring reading coverage now. Wait and let him write his fate on the field.
DeleteThere is not much coverage to be read tbh. I'm reading Eagles fans putting all their fate into Bradford's hands. And legs. And trying too hard to ditch Sanchez's name and game at first opportunity. Personally, I think that Philly is best moving forward with Sanchez starting G1 of the season, but I know the want from the coaching staff will be too big to insert Bradford and I have this strong feeling it will be their small downfall on a great track record thus far that Chip has. On of the things that all the fans are overlooking is the mind aspects of the game readiness that I think Bradford will not posses in around 45 days. Coming of TWO ACL tears and looking JJ Watt ie running right at you should be too much for a completely healthy QB, let alone someone with jelly knees.
ReplyDeleteWe shall see. I just hope Tim can look decent at practices and OK in games, I hope to see him score some TD's a run some DB's over in that familiar Jets at Broncos TNF manner when he level Revis on the right side for a 1st down.
WOOF, INSTANT CHILLS!
Hope everyone is OK health wise. It's really hot here in Zagreb, with temperatures going around 40 Celsius at the moment. The 40%-50% humidity is not helping either.
Hello everyone! Our long wait is almost over and pretty soon we will be abuzz with football talk and I am definetely looking forward to it. Hopefully this time around we will be able to sit back relax & enjoy the culmination of Tim's two years of hard work while he forever puts to bed the notion that he is not an NFL quarterback.
ReplyDeleteThats priority number one. The next step which hopefully will come in time is establishing himself as a franchise quarterback.
In the meantime I came across this great article in usa today. It was more in depth than anything I had heard before about the throwing process & mechanics Tim has undergone. There is alot of interesting information in the article. What stood out most to me was that in any throwing motion whether it be a football, baseball or strike the important motion is determined in 1/250 to 1/600 of a second.
Link: www.usatoday.com/story/nfl/2015/07/23/tim-tebow-philadelphia-eagles-tom-house-quarterback-coach/30575803
Nice link Bob. Agree with your description of the USA Today article & embedded video. One thing I took from the video was how lean Tebow looked as compared to Eagles' OTA's & Mini-camp. I had read he dropped 16 lbs in one week recently when Eagles' coaches suggested he'd benefit from a lighter frame in their offense:
Delete*** see this link: http://www.therealworldgazette.com/sports/eagles-tell-tim-tebow-to-slim-down-to-fit-in-with-the-offense-drops-16lbs-in-one-week). Great stuff.
Ed. I agree with your desire to ignore coverage during this gap period prior to camp. The coverage I have read recently completely dismisses Tebow's potential impact and chance to play a significant role on the Eagles, a slight departure from some of the optimism we were starting to see. The current mantra seems to be that the Eagles are in a tough QB bind this season and will be 'forced' to start Bradford ahead of schedule or Sanchez in spite of his turnover tendencies. I actually feel Kelly has a more significant plan for Tebow this season; sure hope this is the case.
Regards, Ron
One week from today!
ReplyDeleteI'll start a new discussion thread when camp starts. Gonna do my best to ignore coverage and speculation until then.