Training, competition, nutrition, recovery, injuries, psychology, and other topics relevant to competing with younger athletes. Also Tim Tebow articles. Formerly the "Over Forty Athlete" blog.
Friday, January 30, 2015
Tebow 2015 discussion thread
Nothing profound to say, just a new thread to talk about the new season. Bob, start us off with your great news about the Antonio Brown interview, please.
Some great stuff from Bob on the previous thread. We appear to be having technical problems, so I'm going to repost it here, courtesy of Bob:
"Some REALLY REALLY encouraging news for us Tebow fans:
I just heard an interview with Antonio Brown where he was about his workouts with Tebow this week & if he thought Tebow would get another opportunity to play quarterback in the NFL.
He said quote: " He is motivated, he can still squat the house, he is still ready to play & he is working, he is preparing like it, he is thinking about, he is forseeing it so I think it's a possibility".
The interview was on the Jim Rome show.
I continue to believe it WILL happen. Someone will take action & give this guy his rightly deserved chance."
Thanks for writing that for me Ed. Finally something solid & positive from an NFL guy we can take serouisly. I had a suspision that something good was happening when I saw a photo of Tim & Antonio working out together earlier this week. It's probably a coincidence or maybe it isn't that Tim is working out with one of the best recievers in the league & not the punter or a special teams guy. :)
Of course nothing is certain but at least now we have definintive proof that Tim has not given up.
Nice find Kathryn: I thought I noticed a knowing sly (in a good way) look on his face when asked about the Cards. It looked like he was eating that up. :) Did you notice the same thing?
It's easy to see why he motivates & brings out the best in his teamamtes. I think the wisdom he espouses to them puts things in context for them & that enables them to perform at their best.
Quick Tebow update: It's been slow going but there are a couple of things of note.
1) Yesterday he gave an interview on the golf channel & the interviewers once again asked him about his football playing future. I think it's significant that he get's asked this question on all the interviews he gives. His answers of course are coy but if you read between the lines he always let's it be known that he is the best athlete & the best quarterback he has ever been. He recently gave another interview on Fox & their sports guy made it a point of saying that Tim still wants to play. What this means & whether he gets another opportunity or not is still anyone's guess but it's on peoples minds & that's a good thing.
The link is: golfchannel.com/media/tim-tebow-discuss-his-love-golf
A really great comment today by Michael Sam about his mindset regarding football and playing it:
"I tell them the same thing every time: I’ll give up the game when my legs are both broken.
I’m a football player and I will keep fighting for my dream to play in the NFL."
The whole thing here, really good written: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/02/18/michael-sam-first-person-account-nfl-one-year-later/
I don't want to knock Tebow with this, but I haven't seem to remember him saying something like that. And if you think that Tebow has it more against him than this guy, think again.
It would seem that young Mr. Sam has applied his passion for football toward a stint on Dancing With the Stars this season. I recall Tim's statement about the relentless pursuit of his dream to play in the NFL, and he too has since found other endeavors. I don't question the sincerity of either man, but this is a fact of life that we all experience: circumstances change and so do dreams. They both could very well return to the NFL sometime down the road because life is also an unpredictable thing, but as spectators to these tandem suspense stories the only thing we can count on is action, not words.
The timing of the DWTS is going itno his favor as there is nothing in NFL in June and July. I would be highly surprised if he lasts into July in the show. Dancers are by default smaller and more flexible. He will look clumsy. And I have nothing against for him to earn a buck to prolong his NFL dream. If he's on an CFL team, and Tim is not that will give you some final perspective.
I hold nothing against him, either. To repeat, I don't question the sincerity of either man; and I'm not going to make judgments about dedication on the basis of words alone. What I take issue with are those (not you but others) that would suggest that Tim is a media whore for doing fundamentally the same thing that Michael Sam is doing. There is no basis here to compare either man negatively to the other. They are both making decisions on the basis of the landscape that they see spread out before them, not on what we think we see.
IMO the timing is bad for the NFL and terrible for the CFL. NFL teams have a heavy schedule of OTAs in May and mini-camp in June. CFL teams have training camp in June. It would be hard to think of a way to undermine your viability as a player more than being unavailable for camp or OTAs, especially for a player with a reputation as not athletic enough for the league. Doing DTWS sends a strong message to the NFL that he is more interested in being a celebrity than a player.
The difference comes down to money. Tim had $8.7M in guaranteed money on his Broncos contract, not counting endorsement income. He has extensive investments and close relationships with several wealthy Florida businessmen who mentor him. There is little doubt he is financially secure for life and can pick and choose what he does. IMO he did the ESPN gig because the high profile allowed him to continue to promote his foundation. Also, I have come to realize that Tim harbors long term political ambitions. Finally, I take him at his word that he just loves being around football, especially in the SEC where he is possibly the most popular player ever.
Michael Sam came from a dirt poor family. He made $46K in guaranteed money on his rookie contract. He could have done better teaching PE at high school. He needs a job, and DTWS reportedly pays up to $100K per episode. And let's be honest, his "demographic" (to put the term delicately) is overrepresented in the viewership for DTWS. So yeah, a no brainer for him and the show.
I will say this: if Tim ever does DTWS, this blog will come down before the end of the first episode. And I may just wipe my hard drive to make sure no trace survives of it. Heck, I may burn my laptop.
Kudos to Kathryn for uncovering proof that Tim is out in LA throwing with Tom House this week. Don't get in an argument with her, because I'm pretty sure she must work for the CIA. But great news for us die hard fans, because it means he is seriously training on his form and not just giving it lip service. Sure do hope he throws at the Vets Combine. Only 3 1/2 weeks til we know for sure.
All of Tim's actions have been consistent with his stated goals of playing again. The only thing standing in his way & which he has not had any control over is the obstinance of those that have been opposed to him & hopefully that will soon change. If for some reason we don't see him throw at the combine the question needs to be asked. Why wasn't Tebow there?
Lol Ed: If he ever does DWTS can you take my laptop too.
P.S. For whatever reason if football doesn't workout I hear Tim can still hit a fastball. Heck if Bo Jackson & Deion Sanders could do it. Why couldn't Tim.
A MiLB prospect that has been working with Tom House tweeted that Tim joined him and the other pro clients in the batting cages yesterday morning. Said that Tim's been working with House. As you know by now House works out of USC. Tim spent a week there earlier this month before returning to the east coast for a week to do some work for his foundation; then late last week returned to USC and has been either at USC or UCLA ever since (UCLA is home base for his old offseason quarterback coach Noel Mazzone). No confirmation that he's working with Mazzone, but we do know he's working with House. I suspect that the media must be aware of this because it's not that hard to suss out, but in the interest of not scaring teams away may be respecting the fact that TT is keeping his head down for the time being.
A little bit of interesting trivia about Tom House. He caught home run #715 off the bat of Hank Aaron which broke Babe Ruth's longstanding record. He was a relief pitcher for the Atlanta Braves at the time & was in the left field bullpen where he made the catch.
Kathryn and I were starting to get worried that he had given up on the NFL and was just paying lip service to it. Him continuing to work with Tom House is great news. The knock on his previous makeover efforts was that he didn't stay with them long enough for the throwing motion improvements to become permanent, and he reverted to his old form under fire. If 18 months of recurring work with Tom House can't perfect his motion, then he needs to become a fullback. Hopefully that dedicated work, plus a good showing at the vets combine, convinces someone to take a chance.
Oddly, I think two years out of the NFL may work in his favor. The biggest deterrent to a team trying him out was the media glare. He will always be popular and respected, but people have a short attention span and some of the novelty has worn off, so maybe a team will be persuaded that Tebowmania can be suppressed to a tolerable level.
The story about Hank Aaron and #715 brings back memories. I grew up in Atlanta at that time, and was big Braves fan as a kid. In 1973 I was a 4th grader. When he broke 700 home runs, the stadium gate started handing out 12"x12" cards with the number of the next homerun printed on them. Everyone would hold them up when he came to bat. If he hit a homer, you had a cool souvener. I think I have #713 stashed away somewhere in my parents' house.
That's a good story about Hank. I remember seeing it on TV I was about 9 or 10 years old. He must have felt a tremendous sense of relief after he crossed home plate considering all the pressure he was under, which is a shame because that was one of the truly historic achievements in all of sports history.
Tim has never struck me as a lip service kind of a guy. I believe when he says or does something he goes all in. What had always worried me was whether anyone would recognize the dedication, the improvements etc.. & then be willing to step up, sign him & let the chips fall where they may.
Michael Sam will be at the FA combine, per Schefter. It seems he has an out clause on his DWTS contract in the way that TT has an out clause with his ESPN obligations. Good luck to him. Maybe one of these teams will sign him on for preseason and training camp if for no other reason than to save him from DWTS (85% joke, 15% serious).
It does concern me a bit that TT's name was not also leaked in connection with the FA combine. It could indicate that he's not on the list. But it could also indicate that Schefter got the info from Sam's side and not from the NFL. I would expect an authorized preliminary list of attendees probably somewhere on or around the 10th (start of free agency), and maybe more leaks sooner. Either way, at least we'll know soon.
Hmmm, sudden flow of tweets suggests the NFL just finalized the attendence list, and insiders like Shefter and Rappoport are working their networks to find out juicy names.
If that's the case, the more notable names will trickle out over the next few days. If Tim is on the list, you can bet someone will spill the beans fairly soon.
The NFL page for the vet combine applicants says "The NFL will notify applicants by the end of February.". I find it encouraging that about a week before the end of February, Tim's suddenly out in L.A. again working w/Tom House. And Tim's also suddenly tweeting more often, including a rather cryptic tweet today.
If Tim applied, the NFL accepted him. Period. Even if it's for no other reason than to double the ratings they'd get for the vet combine.
Agreed. The only question now is, did he apply? It would seem the work he's been doing with Tom House this month would be a waste of his time if he weren't planning on attending the combine - not to mention an unnecessary waste of Tom House's time when his plate is surely already full with pro baseball clients gearing up for their season.
Dang Brooke & Kathryn: Excellent powers of deduction & great detective work. I was thinking along those lines as well but I was cautious about it because I didn't want to be let down once again.
It was rather curious to me that he chose to quote Nelson Mandela & not a Bible Verse. Not that that in itself would necessarily mean anything.
We are all thinking the same thing, that Tim is sending a message with that Mandela quote. He has a long history of that, going all the way back to his eye black in college. It was right at a year ago that D1 tweeted the photo of him in front of the "Perseverance" sign, surely not an accident as well. Given the theme of the quote, and the timing relative to the veteran combine, it is very plausible that the two are connected. But does he hope to get into the combine, or has he gotten into the combine and he hopes it opens some doors?
Either way, very heartening to see him training hard and not giving up. Not many guys would keep trying for 2 full years, but then not many guys are Tim Tebow.
I'd keep an eye on the Bears this off-season. Cutler is being trashed by just about everyone ever associated with the bears (coaches, staff, players, ball boys): http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/04/a-whole-lot-of-jay-cutlers-ex-coaches-are-ripping-him-anonymously/
I wonder if John Fox (HC) & Adam Gase (OC) have another run in them ... with Tebow?
Tebow would have 2x the offensive weapons with this year's Bears over the 2010/11 Broncos.
How do you swallow a $15M Salary Cap hit in 2015 when you cut Cutler? You bring in a 'known commodity' like Tebow for the NFL minimum salary while you rebuild your squad on both sides of the ball. :-)
From the previous Article (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/04/a-whole-lot-of-jay-cutlers-ex-coaches-are-ripping-him-anonymously):
"Now that huge contract is a millstone around the Bears’ necks. It won’t be easy for the Bears to move on from Cutler any time soon, as his $15.5 million 2015 base salary is fully guaranteed, and $10 million of his $16 million 2016 base salary becomes fully guaranteed if he’s still on the Bears’ roster a week from now."
In addittion to the Fox Gase connection, the Bears & Redskins share similar circumstances & have certain built in characteristics that may be advantageous to a Tebow signing.
1) Organizational turmoil. Things are so bad the Bears 96 year old owner who normally keeps to herself was outspoken & angry about the team this past year. It may prompt the team to take a flyer on Tim.
2) Structuctual capacity to handle Tebowmania. The Bears & Skins are both proud big franchises with a strong tradition. Unlike some of the teams who seem content to hire retread after retread they want to win now.
In the case of Cutler this may be one instance where bringing in Tebow as a backup could actually help push Cutler to play better. It might even take some of the pressure off of him going into the season. They could do worse than sign Tebow for the league minimum.
Hopefully if Tim does attend the combine he will perform admirably & it will open some eyes to the potential we have long seen in him & hopefully some of the previous criticism will get muted this time around.
Just saw the first official combine acceptance letter in the wild. Should see a wave of these today and tomorrow. We'll know for sure soon whether he is participating. My money says yes. That is best explanation for him spending all last week and this week at USC throwing with Tom House. I think we'll know today or tomorrow.
I don't know what to think of Fox. On the one hand, he was part of the decision to kick Tim to the curb, and he experienced Tebowmania at it's second-worst (worst being Jets, of course). On the other hand, he knows better than any coach in the NFL what Tim CAN do, and the intangibles he brings. Also, Adam Gase knows Tim's limitations as well as anyone, so he would be better equipped to recognize game-changing improvements when Tim throws at the combine.
I agree about Fox he was involved in the decision to dump Tim but I don't think he really had any choice but to go along with what Elway wanted regardless. So I am inclined to let him off the hook & hope he would take the initiative to make amends for what happened. He probably has more authority over the direction of the team now in Chicago than he did in Denver. He is working with a young GM so hopefully his input carries a little more clout than it did in Denver. (The Marshall trade surprised me I didn't see that coming. There are probably more bombshells to come.) Same goes for the Mccoy trade. I didn't see that coming either.
While It would undoubtly be a positive development to see Tim participate in the Combine. There are some things I like about it & some things that concern me about it.
1) I like that as opposed to a private workout for one team, every team will get a chance to evaluate him without any preconcieved notions.
2) I also like that the possibility exists that he performs well & could pit several teams against each other where they may actually want to compete for his services. Once one team shows an inkling of interest others should surely follow.
3) A concern I have is every team has known about his rewired mechanics for some time & has not shown any interest previously so unless he really wows them they may overlook the effort. I hope if Tim does throw & throws well there will be some positive publicity that comes out of it that would make it more acceptable for teams to give him a closer look.
At this point I do not see any downside to Tim doing the Combine. The alternative is more of the last 2 years, eg nothing.
I think teams are not even willing to give Tim a secret workout, because of the risk of it making headlines and pissing their QB's off. The Combine allows them to watch him without anyone noticing.
Bottom line, if Tim wows at the Combine with an improved throwing motion, he might get a team willing to give him one last shot. I do not see another plausible scenario that puts him back in the NFL.
[The NFL is holding a veteran combine in Phoenix on March 22 for players now out of the league, and one name I’ve heard a few times as a possible participant is Tim Tebow, who we last saw throwing a football in August 2013 for the Patriots. Turns out Tebow has been working diligently with Tom House (also Tom Brady’s personal coach) in Los Angeles over the last two years, sharpening his skills and hoping for one last shot. House told us on Friday that he isn’t sure if Tebow will be attending the combine, but “he went from being a little inaccurate and didn’t throw a whole lot of spirals, to throwing very accurate and real good at spinning the ball.”]
This is the first actual quote I've read from Tom House about Tebow's progress. I love it. Hoping it will bear fruit.
Welp. All it took was the briefest of mentions from a legitimate media source and it's already blowing up on Twitter. That's bad news and good news. The bad news is of course the circus factor. Any team considering him is just going to have to put on its big boy pants and suck it up. If nothing else the Pats stint was a clinic on how to quite easily throw a wet towel on media mania. It's not that hard, you just literally have to do the polar opposite of everything the Jets did. The good news is that by definition the appetite to see him back in the league has not diminished one iota and (so far) the response is positive. That will change to some degree as the usual emotionally-invested media blowhards sputter and spew about how he's not an NFL QB, but hopefully the general fanbase is tired enough of intellectually reconciling that and NFL QB Ryan Lindley that they just ignore it.
Guess Vince Young won't be attending the combine after all. I am tempering my enthusiasim until I know for sure Tim has been invited. However I really like the way Tim & his people have handled this so far. (Just enough information to get people interested but not too much where it becomes counterproductive.) They seem to be controlling the message at their own pace. I wonder if it was a coincidence or by design that the news was originally released by the Boston Globe.? & if the Pats may still be interested in him.
So far most of the press I have read has been accepting of his two years of hard work & the improvements in his accuracy. Having Tom House vouch for him is a very positive sign too.
Been going nuts trying to read all the tea leaves on this one. I think it's safe to assume that if Tim had been rejected, he would say so. That leaves two possibilities:
1. He hasn't heard from the NFL yet. 2. He knows he is going but the NFL won't let him say so.
Elite athletes generally need about 2 weeks to taper off of intensive training before a big competition. There is no way they would spring an invite on these guys at the last minute. They want them at peak performance.
Only a few attendee names have been leaked, and one of them (Vince Young) turned out to be false. That suggests the NFL is controlling the release of names, possibly to avoid muddling up the free agent market.
I think #2 is highly probable, and we'll get some happy news in the next few days.
As of yesterday, Tim was in the vicinity of the D1 facility he owns in FL. So I assume he's still training there.
Also, yesterday NFL reporter Will Brinson said that Tim missed the 'first' NFL vets combine, but might make it to the 2nd one on 3/22. All I've ever read is that the 3/22 combine *is* the first vets combine. Does anyone know if there was an earlier vets combine?
The Brinson thing was probably just a misstatement.
It's safe to assume Tim knows whether he is going or not. I can't believe he would let the current coverage continue if he had been rejected. Ergo I believe he has been accepted and just can't announce it yet.
One thing is for certain: we WILL know sometime in the next 12 days. I think we're going to get the first promising bit of Tebow news in a long time.
Outstanding article written back in December of 2011 while Tebow & the Broncos were on their magical run. Some of the points the article makes are still relevant today & they highlight some of the obstacles that Tim has to overcome in his desire to return. But as Tim likes to say PERSERVERANCE!
Link: espn.go.com./nfl/story/_lid/7330773/tim-tebow-real-impact-overlooked the article written by Jeffri Chadiha is well worth a read.
Here is a data point on the release date for the veteran combine roster, courtesy of a Gators fan blog.:
OnlyGators.com has spoken with the NFL’s regional combine officials on multiple occasions over the last few weeks but was told that an official roster would not be released either at all or at least until much closer to the event.
As much as we the supporters & fans of Tebow would like a definitive answer sooner it's probably better for Tim that the roster not be released too much in advance if at all. This way the critics & the naysayers won't have any time to spew their nonsense.
If Tim does the combine & throws well with a notable undeniable difference in his mechanics hopefully that will be the story coming out of the combine..
On a side note: Does anyone get the reasoning behind what Chip Kelly has been doing? If it is true that he wants Marriota he seems to be giving up alot for that remote possibility. The quaterbacks he's got now are not mobile. Wouldn't a mobile quarterback like Tim be a better fit?
TT not on the list, per azcentral: http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/03/11/nfl-veterans-combine-participants-list-march-22-arizona/70158648/?hootPostID=%5B%278e56a5d176ed1233caa9dc08d63426f8%27%5D
Wow. Not really sure how to process that. Makes me kind of sick to my stomach. The only words I can think of to express my feelings for the NFL have 4 letters.
The link to the list does say 'subject to change', but the only reason I can think of for the NFL to not list Tim's name if he has been accepted is so as to not kill the hype they're getting out of free agency (I'd assumed they weren't going to release the list until after the FA hype had died down). I don't think they'd leave Tim's name off the list as a favor to him to control the media nuttiness. Doesn't look good...
Tom House supposedly did a radio interview this week in which he talked about Tim. I've tried googling it, but can't find it. If anyone knows where it is, please post the link.
Although the NFL site says the list is 'subject to change', it can't change much. They said they were going to accept about 100 players & this list has 103 players on it.
What I'm wondering is: why in the world would Tim keep training w/Tom House even AFTER he had to have known he wasn't accepted to the combine (assuming he applied)?
>>why in the world would Tim keep training w/Tom House even AFTER he had to have known he wasn't accepted to the combine<<
Absolutely none of this makes any sense. His own trainer is under the impression that he hasn't given up. This thread started with Antonio Brown's remarks suggesting the same thing. He spent roughly three of the last four weeks working out with House, presumably bringing his rewired mechanics back to where he'd left them before embarking on SEC Nation. Why do that if you're not anticipating some sort of workout? The insane optimist in me wishes it were because Sexton's got something lined up, but the realist knows that's not the case. There would be no need for House to pimp him on the radio if Sexton were taking calls.
>>I just noticed Brady Quinn's name isn't on the list, either. I could swear I read early on that he was going to apply.<<
That surprised me, too. I'm not going to bother trying to dig them up, but I was sure I'd read articles referencing the vet combine in Quinn's comeback effort. I guess it's possible he applied and was also rejected.
AFAIK this is the first broadcast interview House has done on Tebow. And it just so happens to take place on the same day that the combine roster comes out with Tim's name left off?
The timing on this is no accident. I am 100% certain Team Tebow made this happen on this day for a reason. The question is: what does it mean?
My best guess is that Tim applied and was not accepted, and this is his way of sending a message to counter the flood of Tebow-is-done articles that will hit Twitter later today.
It's so hard to get a read on what is happening. Every time one thinks they have it figured out it only gets stranger. All signs were pointing towards Tim doing the combine. If he applied & wasn't accepted someone should say so & then tell everyone why.
I am glad for the interview House gave & I agree the timing of it was no accident. I would like to see even more from him & others to speak out on Tims behalf.
I had reservations about the combine because I felt teams have known about his training for 2 years & had still not shown any interest & would turn a blind eye or a deaf ear no matter what he did.
Wouldn't it be just as effective to send teams film of Tim throwing with Tom House. Everyone knows what else he can do. It's not like he has been a player who slipped through the cracks & was missed. He is Tim Tebow after all.
1) Since TT, Brady Quinn, & Vince Young were rejected, is it possible the NFL only accepted players that hadn't had enough playing time for teams to have sufficient film on them (I don't buy VY's 'applied late' statement)?
2) I saw on twitter that a 31 year old USC alum who's played in the NFL is taking part in USC's Pro Day. Is it possible Tim's continued training w/House after finding out he'd been rejected could be b/c he intends on attending UF's Pro Day on 4/7?
OK, after doing some research on the QB's selected for the veteran combine, here is the most important thing to know: of the 7 QB's selected, only one has ever thrown a pass in an NFL football game. Mike Kafka threw 16 passes for 107 yards in 2011. That's it. Everyone else has bounced around CFL, AFL, UFL (whatever the hell that is), and probably worked in a couple of car washes.
So I think it's clear this is not a true Veteran combine, and probably not intended for players like Tim, BQ, VY, etc.
If that's the case then it's probably safe to assume (although with Tebow as we know too well it's not ever safe to assume anything ;). that Tebow & his people must have known ahead of time that this event was not for them. Then it's also safe to assume the reason for all the training would mean they are still trying to get back in & by sending Tom House out to give interviews they must think they have a reasonable chance of doing so.
Hopefully Tom House & some other influential voices can continue to make Tim's case for him. If the idea of his mechanics being fixed takes hold one has to believe some team will have to take a look.
P.S. Although the Patriots do not need a QB they were the ones who sent Tim to Tom House & it would not surprise me if they wanted to take a closer look for themselves.
Once one door is opened it may lead to others. Keeping my fingers crossed.
Nice research Ed. Three thoughts: 1. It sure would be nice if the NFL stated/published the purpose of the NFL for its fans. If indeed, they have limited the scope of the participant's playing history to what has been listed, wouldn't it have been civil of them to post this somewhere, like on www.nfl.com?
2. WTH. If the NFL doesn't have a limited scope for the participants at this event, then, we can only assume the NFL is the source of Tebow's 'NFL blackballing'. Not sure what else we can conclude.
3. IM-WTH. Kafka, Johnson, Kay, Price, Robinson, Thomas, Wilson. Tyler 'frigin' Wilson? Tebow could run (and yes, pass) circles around these guys. Jerrod Johnson (Texas A&M) Mike Kafka (Northwestern) Brendon Kay (Cincinnati) Keith Price (Washington) Zac Robinson (Oklahoma State) Darron Thomas (Oregon) Tyler Wilson (Arkansas)
*** Barring Tebow actually showing up and participating in this event or getting a tryout with another team(s), I can only conclude that Tebow has been BLACKBALLED from the NFL. I resisted this take for long enough. Not sure what other conclusion to make at this point. The kid wins ... end of story. ***
I think blackballed is the wrong term. It implies a conspiracy or deliberate effort on the part of the League that's just way too tinfoil-hat-black-helicopter-wingnut to be credible. That Brady Quinn and Vince Young are also absent from the list all but confirms that the veteran combine is, strangely, not for veterans with a certain amount of playing time and film under their belts. Rather it's for players vaguely defined as 'overlooked'.
I think a better term to describe Tebow's situation would be 'ostracized.' There's an intangible, social element to it that has pervaded the League's attitude toward him. If you're a GM and you want your universe of owners, coaches, players, media, agents and so on to take you seriously, you don't give Tim Tebow a workout because "everybody knows" he's not an NFL QB. Repeat something long enough and it becomes the truth. If he's going to get a look this spring, it will be because a remarkable talent evaluator with a backbone, a sack, and limited options is at the point where he doesn't give a crap what Prisco has to say about it.
Short of that, if TT really wants to air out his new mechanics, he's going to have to go to the CFL because the NFL is poisoned. At this point I'm not convinced he's willing to do that. Should've done it last season, but woulda coulda shoulda.
"I think a better term to describe Tebow's situation would be 'ostracized.' There's an intangible, social element to it that has pervaded the League's attitude toward him. If you're a GM and you want your universe of owners, coaches, players, media, agents and so on to take you seriously, you don't give Tim Tebow a workout because "everybody knows" he's not an NFL QB. Repeat something long enough and it becomes the truth. If he's going to get a look this spring, it will be because a remarkable talent evaluator with a backbone, a sack, and limited options is at the point where he doesn't give a crap what Prisco has to say about it."
That's *exactly* it. It's Emperor's New Clothes mentality at it's worst.
As for the CFL being the only place to demonstrate his new mechanics, what about UF Pro Day this year? I asked the following question above, but I guess people didn't see it. So I'll repost it:
I saw on twitter that a 31 year old USC alum who's played in the NFL is taking part in USC's Pro Day. Is it possible Tim's continued training w/House after finding out he'd been rejected could be b/c he intends on attending UF's Pro Day on 4/7?
^^ Pro Day is as likely or unlikely as anything else. Just don't know enough at this point to speculate. I would say, though, that Pro Day or any sort of combine-style event would give him limited opportunity in a controlled environment, which may not be enough to convince scouts with relatively hardened attitudes. I'm all for him taking whatever avenues he can, but it seems to me his best chance at regaining the League's interest is to demonstrate that his new mechanics are durable under the stress of live games. Alternative leagues would seem to be the only option for that at this point, provided even they still have interest in signing him.
IMO as I said in my commentary above, I believe he is still working with Tom House because he & his handlers believe he must have a reasonable chance of getting back in the NFL. They had to have known ahead of time that the combine was not intended for players like Tim.
Having Tom House come out for Tim was no accident. I hope we see more interviews like these so the idea of Tim's mechanics being fixed begins to take hold in peoples minds. Then maybe a team will be willing to take a look. IMO
Is anyone else having trouble accessing the Tom House interview that Ed linked to above? Yesterday after the commercial aired, I simply got a message that the vid couldn't be played on my system (I'm using my old computer), but today it's skipping to another video after the commercial. And when I searched for it on the site, I couldn't find it.
>>IMO as I said in my commentary above, I believe he is still working with Tom House because he & his handlers believe he must have a reasonable chance of getting back in the NFL.<<
We thought the same thing last year. Everything that's happening now is a carbon copy of preseason 2014. Sorry but I don't have much faith in his handlers after watching them handle him straight into a Disney Parade hosting gig last season. And if all they can think of this season is to send Tom House out on interviews to vouch for his mechanics then frankly we may as well hang it up.
>>On a side note: Does anyone get the reasoning behind what Chip Kelly has been doing?<<
No one but Kelly has the remotest clue. He's basically blowing his roster to Kingdom Come. The latest transaction rumor has him trying to trade Mathis away. Some believe its an elaborate effort to trade up and make room for Mariota, which I personally believe would be idiotic. Another more plausible theory is that he's lost his mind.
I heard this morning that Tim did not apply for the combine: IMO this bolsters the theory that he knew ahead of time that the combine was not for players like him.
They must have a plan of choice they are working on. Whether it works or not remains to be seen.
Could be a big mistake. NFL signaling through press that he's welcome to apply, even now after application deadline. He'd probably look amazing against those other guys.
All we do here is hold out hope that he's got some secret strategy to return, often justified by his actions (training patterns) and statements (or lack thereof). I'm certainly not above this wishful thinking and will continue to speculate along with the rest of you, but realistically - objectively - speaking, it looks like he's calling it a day.
Based on what we know & not on what we don't know. I am inclinded to agree it may be a big mistake, the NFL seems to welcome his application & he would look amazing against those other guys.
I just can't bring myself to think he is calling it a day. Unless he says so. It runs contrary to everything he has ever said & stood for. It doesn't make any sense to train the way he does & put out press releases saying he wants back in.
Then why did he suddenly start training w/House again? I'm not automatically buying these reports today that say Tim didn't apply, but that the NFL would still welcome him at the combine. They're coming from the NFL, who have been known to lie-especially in the Ray Rice case. By saying Tim didn't apply, it takes off the heat they've been feeling the past couple of days. It's possible he didn't apply, but then-again-why start training w/House again? If he didn't apply, then he has something else up his sleeve. All I can think of is he's planning on taking part in the UF Pro Day or he's planning on trying the CFL or some other alternative league.
Probably the same reason he trained with House last season, when the vet combine wasn't part of the picture. Most likely he's got Sexton and co trying to cultivate private workouts; and he's spent the last month-ish working out with House to get back up to form...just in case.
Training with House is no definitive indication that he applied to the combine. Further there is a source telling an NFL reporter that Tim did not apply. That source is either someone close to Tim or someone from within the NFL. If the former, the report is indisputable; if the latter,there's no basis for accusing the NFL of obfuscation and lying. Why lie that Tim did not apply if he could expose that lie with a single tweet or statement? Why if he wasn't welcome there would they open up the possibility by suggesting to the reporter that he could still apply? If they felt heat from the public wouldn't it make more sense--instead of lying that he didn't apply and issuing a disingenuous overture inviting him to do so--to simply explain that his prior experience and playing time ruled him out just like with Brady Quinn and Vince Young? That's a far easier, straightforward, and consistent resolution than dicking around with doublespeak. IMO, he did not apply, not because he couldn't get in if he really wanted to, but because he felt he had better options. As Bob observed, whether those options work or not remain to be seen.
And yes, based on the present landscape of *facts* as we understand them, it looks like he's calling it a day. If the facts change, so will the conclusion.
When it comes to reading the tea leaves on Tim's intentions, IMO the most significant recent data point is the House interview.
AFAIK this is the first time that House has been interviewed publicly about working with Tim. This was not just a brief comment in a more general interview. The interview was lengthy, and it was solely about Tim. And it happened on the day that the combine list came out without Tim's name on it.
IMO there is zero chance that the House interview was accidental, or that the timing was coincidence. This was 100% intentional PR by Team Tebow to counteract the negative impact of his name not being on the combine list. I am even more certain of that now that we know he did not apply, since it means his absence from the list was not a surprise to him.
I'll leave it to each of you to infer what his intentions could be to finally send Tom House out in public to say he is still working hard and has improved greatly.
All. Hey, I've had a couple of exchanges on Twitter that may be something to keep an eye on (see links and summaries below).
>> https://twitter.com/RonDogCO/status/576421218305208320 I have zero G2 to indicate this individual (John R. Strayer) has any special access or knowledge of the Eagles' plans wrt a Tebow workout; but, he is claiming that Tebow has a workout on Monday with the Eagles. This would explain the work with House over the last month.
>> https://twitter.com/RonDogCO/status/576423808145309697 With Chip's trade for Bradford, there are rumblings that one of two things will happen with Bradford ... 1. Cut Bradford and free up $12.9M in cap room immediately. I doubt they will do this; but, you never know.
2. Rework Bradford's contract to reduce the cap hit in 2015 & 2016.
Either way, I'm sure Chip and the Eagles are concerned about Bradford's fragility. Tebow would be a great addition either as insurance or to compete for the starting job in Chip's 'spread-option offense'.
I've taken two steps back off the ledge (ie. my Blackballing comment above after the NFL Vet Combine news ... :-) ).
I'll believe this when it happens. I bet part of DeMarco Murray's reason for signing for Philly (aside from the nice guaranteed contract he got) was the chance to play with Bradford again.
That's a great point. I did read that Bradford was lobbying him hard. But, ultimately, I bet it was the guaranteed money he received and the chip on his shoulder from the Cowboys not opening up their bank account for him. He did after all go to their most hated rival. :-)
Also, from a production standpoint, Murray would love to play with Tebow in the read option. With Tebow as a credible running threat (as opposed to Sanchez or Bradford), I would project that Murray would rack up 1,700+ yards. If you remember, Willis McGahee, was one season away from retirement and he put up 1,200 yards with Tebow under center (this included numerous missed snaps with him nursing a sore hamstring all year). McGahee did (671, 544, 380 yds before) & (731 & 377 yds after) the season with Tebow. Lance Ball & Knowshon Moreno added an additional 600 yards with Tebow under center.
Anyway, I could see this happening. But, like everything in the NFL involving Tebow, there are personalities, conventional thinking and a lack of risk taking across the board ... EXCEPT in Philly with Chip Kelly. Rick Taking and unconventional, independent thinking is his trademark. :-) We'll see. Ron
Ditto. Some random dude from Philly comes across a grenade like that yet Schefter and Rappoport are completely oblivious? It leaked just to this guy? Either someone's pulling his chain or he's having some fun at others' expense.
As I said on Twitter, all Tebow rumors are trolls until proven otherwise. I have myself been burned numerous times by spoof accounts. Watch out for @Rrapsheet and @AdamScheftler :)
Chip Kelly continues to be intriguing, mainly because he shows he does not give a flying crap what anyone thinks of him and he's not afraid to stick his thumb in the eye of conventional wisdom. Also he owns personnel decisions, which means he does not have to answer to some faceless GM.
But they just re-signed Sanchez to a fairly substantial contract, and I just can't see anyone in their right mind mixing that pair again. Add in the Bradford trade and it just doesn't look plausible. Neither Sanchez nor Bradford are known for mobility, so it does not look like they are going for a running QB offense. So unless Kelly wants to maintain two offensive systems and force defenses to prepare for both (which would be damned brilliant and gutsy), I just don't see Tebow going there.
ED: It's funny that you mention the two system offense as being (brilliant & gutsy) that would definetely turn convetional offensive thinking on it's Derriere. They had a chance to implement that in Denver but rather than embrace the concept Elway used it as an excuse to dump Tebow.
Also how would you rate the possibility that the Patriots may again take a look at Tim?? I know they are grooming a successor to Brady but Tim is still young & like you say he adds another dimension that the other quarterbacks do not. Maybe they could still continue to develop Garrapolo & in the meantime install some plays for Tim that have practical use & not just use up a roster spot
I don't see it as a possibility, unless the league increases the roster from 53 to 55, as is being discussed. Then just maybe. By all accounts his retention in 2013 came down to 1 or 2 roster spots.
Wow. Spent the day in meetings on the road yesterday and missed all the fun in Philly.
Ed, agree this is a 'pretty darn awesome' development in Tebow's effort to get back on a NFL football squad.
WRT the guy in Philly (@johnrstrayer) who predicted the Monday workout back on March 10th, he's earned some credibility with his prediction a week in advance. Now, whether his 'source' is still in an inside position, TBd. But, It's actually nice to see 1 in a million Twitter rumors revealed as accurate. :-)
John R. Strayer @johnrstrayer · Mar 10 @The700Level @SportsRadioWIP hearing Tim Tebow to work out for #Eagles next week
I never would have expected the Eagles to sign Tebow to a contract on Monday with so many loose ends to clean up at QB on their Roster: try to get something for Barkley, investigate trade(s) for Sanchez, consider reworked Bradford contract and/or trade.
But, I completely agree that the odds of Tebow in the NFL for 2015 have been bumped in a positive direction ... Finally.
Thanks for the link Kathryn. I thought it was interesting that Cam Newton was playing in this year's event. I didn't know Cam and Tim were still close after the dust up at the U. Truth be told, I've never thought about it.
Not going to try and analyze some of the Tebow quotes in the article. Again, thanks for the link. Ron
As we all know it's never an easy proposition reading the tea leaves regarding Tebow. We have all had our share of surprises & disapointments on a story that has taken on more twists & turns than a Stephen King novel.
Now that we clearly know Tim wants back in & thinks he will get one last chance either by combine or by a precombine signing. I thought it might be fun to speculate which team may be willing to give him this chance.
Will it be a team that clearly needs a quarterback & a turnaround in their fortunes or a team that has an entrenched starter. Everyone's guess is as good as mine but here is my two cents.
Buffalo: No way
Philly: Probably not, everyone seems to think Tim would be great in a Chip Kelly offense, except Chip Kelly.
Miami: Doubtful
New England: Doubtful but not ready to totally write them off. Tebowmania not a consideration & has allies on the staff. Team needs & circumstances may have changed since the last go around.
Jets: 50/50 New staff has been bold & creative.
Baltimore: No need
Cincy: Doubtful but who knows
Pittsburgh: Ben has a new deal but I wouldn't mind seeing Tim as a backup here.
Houston: Doubtful but should
Indy: No need
Jax: Caldwell, enough said.
Tenn: Would they be bold enough?
Denver: Probably not but a chance for redemption.
KC: Probably not but who knows
Raiders: Probably not but he did beat Christian Ponder.
Chargers: Rivers & Tebow on the same team would be an ideal dual threat offense.
Dallas: Probaby not but who knows.
Giants: Probably not but if Tim & Eli can take swings in the batting cage together maybe they could be on the same team.
Arizona: They blew a golden opportunity last year
Rams: Ditto
49rs: Total overhaul so who knows
Seattle: Perfect fit but doubtful
Cleveland: What are they waiting for????
Washington: Ditto
Chicago: 50/50
Detroit: No need
Green Bay: No need but a possibility
Minn: No need
Atl: No need
Carolina: No need
Saints: 50/50
Tampa Bay: Would they be bold enough???
The list above is intended for fun purposes only. Hopefully we will get some good news soon.
There are only 2 paths back into the NFL: 1) as an understudy to an older HOF QB, or 2) as a starter. That's it. 2 QB systems, traditional backup roles, rosters with young or shaky starting QBs, etc. are just wishful thinking. So throw out Seattle, Washington, KC and a whole bunch of other teams.
For teams that are QB-needy, the commitment to TT extends beyond the player. A team would also be committing to tailoring the roster and offensive scheme to fit TT's strengths (as a team would with any other QB that it installs as a starter). That's not to say a team shouldn't pursue that route, it just needs to be understood that signing him is not a 2-dimensional issue from an operational and strategic sense. Also, if he is being looked at as a starter, he would need to be signed within the next few weeks to get a full OTA program this offseason.
Outside of the two possibilities mentioned, lobbying for TT in any other situation can be detrimental as it draws focus away from situations where signing TT would be logical. In fact, part of the 'fatigue' associated with TT has to do with his name coming up in seemingly every conceivable roster scenario. Pick your battles.
That has always been my view, but I'm not sure I hold it anymore. Tim has spent the last 2 years remaking his throwing motion so he can function in a regular offense, as a backup or a starter. If he can credibly demonstrate that he has developed the skillset to run a normal offense, then his intangibles and mobility become huge bonuses instead of the primary reason to grab him.
I think there are a lot of teams this year that really aren't sure what they are going to do at QB. Cleveland and Philly are good examples. I think we will see more teams than usual bring in 3 or 4 credible starters and have a genuine competition.
The drawback with Tim has always been the need to tailor the offense to him, more so than for most other QBs. That also renders him unacceptable as a backup in most instances. If his work with Tom House has removed that impediment, he becomes a much more viable option, possibly even a bargain for some sharp coach.
I totally agree with this revised view of how Tim might be viewed. If these rumors about him working out for the Eagles are true, Chip Kelly deserves alot of respect for reversing his position on Tim & being the first to break the mold.
Unfortunately mechanics won't improve his chances to sign and stick as a backup. He is a learn-by-doing person (dyslexia contributes to that) and backups don't get many reps. If he backs up a HOF QB then there is less pressure to learn and adapt to an offense quickly - he could develop over a few seasons and then be ready when the older QB retires or is released/traded.
Frankly the focus on mechanics in the media was always overblown. Not having an opportunity to immerse himself in a system, through OTAs, training camps, in-season reps, etc. killed him in live action situations. He never graduated from memorizing his own plays to just concentrating on how the defense reacts. The mental aspect of the position is often overlooked.
For PR and locker room reasons muddled QB situations won't work. The circus is minimized if a team brings him in and says "he's our guy." Otherwise you get flashbacks to the Orton/TT days that were not good for anyone.
Philly gave up a 2nd rounder for Bradford, so unless they flip him soon he's their guy (with the Sanchize backing him up). TN (assuming it doesn't like the QBs in the draft), TB (assuming it doesn't like the QBs in the draft), STL (Foles is not good) and BUF (yes, BUF) would be his best bets. If the Bears deal Cutler before his 2016 salary is guaranteed then that would be a possibility, but the GM there said they're moving forward with him. TN would be interesting if they trade out of the pick or take the stud DT. TT is popular in Nashville.
The mental aspect and mechanics were related. Each played on the other. If just one or the other was the problem, then teams would have worked around it. But overcoming both was too much.
We Tebow fans like to dismiss the accuracy thing as something the haters made up. But if you followed his practice performances at NYJ and NE it was clear he had issues. Plenty of reporters started out really excited to cover him, then about halfway through training camp changed their tune to "geez, that guy throws a lot of errant balls."
Read comments from NFL coaches about what they want in a QB, and accuracy is the single common thread. No coach is going to rely on a guy who says "oops, sorry" every 5th or 6th pass.
House says he is throwing very well. If that tempts someone to take a look, then the whole equation could change from the past two years. I have a ton of respect for Tim for being willing to remake himself.
I've spent so much time speculating on teams that might be interested over the past 2 years that I'm just not ready to go down that road again. I"m just going to sit tight and see what develops. I will say, however, that there is no way that the Eagles are banking everything on their starter being a guy who is coming off his second ACL surgery and cannot even run right now.
There is no doubt that Tim had drawbacks with his throwing that held him back the first time around. What was so frustrating for me was that even with these drawbacks he was still able to produce & win games when alot of quarterbacks who threw better could not.
Then having to deal with the indignities in NY & subsequently it seemed like there was an effort to marginalize him.
He deserves a ton of respect for remaking himself & now has an opportunity to demonstrate what true character, perseverance & determination are all about.
Fair points - the two are interrelated. Eagles are only in play if Chip flips Bradford and Sanchez, and does not draft a QB in round 1 (Mariota). No team will sign TT as a backup after it has invested in a young QB as it would threaten to undermine (through no fault of TT) the QB's support internally and externally. It would be a shrewd move to trade Bradford and Sanchez for assets, wipe a lot of $$$ of the books, and then sign TT to a low dollar contract. It would give the Eagles the same degree of roster flexibility that the Seahawks presently enjoy. They would have to do it soon, though.
Today's developments were a huge relief. Although nothing was signed the dark cloud of uncertainty was lifted for now. The House article & the other articles by Dadeaux are very encouraging. Their professionalism really stood out when you compare it to the usual know nothing talking heads.
I gained a ton of respect for Chip Kelly he is a leader & whether he signs Tim or not he wants to win.
Classy interview from David Carr he definetely gets it. I wonder if chip could use a quarterback coach ;).
One last thought from yesterday: I thought it was great that the same pundits who didn't even have any idea that Tim was in Philly for a workout or how the workout went, all of a sudden immediately knew why Chip brought him there.
Bob, continuing off your observation: if it wasn't clear before it's clear now that the media was absolutely asleep at the wheel on this. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever that a *plumbing equipment salesman* should have a better inside track on the inner machinations of the Eagles' Free Agency moves than the guys who are paid to cultivate and tap their sources; but he did. It just goes to show you that these reporters let their preconceived ideas about TT's NFL prospects influence their efforts in smelling out and digging up leads related to any potential signings. That guy spent last week tweeting to reporters that TT was going to work out with the Eagles on Monday. He got the player right, he got the club right, he got the day right. I can understand that they would be reticent to follow up on internet tips, but that this workout came as a surprise to them when laymen paying even remote attention started connecting the dots on Sunday night is just embarrassing.
Not that I necessarily disagree with the sentiment behind it, but IMO it's important to exercise some perspective. First, these guys may be geniuses in their own minds, but notwithstanding a few exceptional cases we're not talking about a corps of discerning intellects. For the most part these guys stick their fingers in the wind and follow the crowd because, as they have repeatedly demonstrated on this and other issues, they haven't the savvy to formulate or defend an argument around independent thought. We are talking about people that are so out of their depth in this particular debate that, when pressed with uncomfortable facts, they resort to railroading it with circular logic and other cheap fallacies ("If he's so good then how come 32 teams agree with me?"). Let's be clear, there is absolutely no point in wasting any time attempting to earnestly reason with individuals that so disingenuously engage in such intellectually bankrupt rhetoric. It's not only an unnecessary and unproductive exercise, but in my mind prohibitively boring. What possible satisfaction could be gleaned by engaging in an argument with a mental midget? At best you walk away having had the last word against a dumbass. Not exactly an accomplishment. At worst you're wasting your time and throwing fuel on an out-of-control bonfire that's only burning Tim.
Second, these reporters are where they are because they are sports fanatics, and as such they harbor a ton of biases. As Ed likes to say, this is all just a soap opera for men. And these reporters are part of the cast of characters. Those under the impression that they are actual journalists only believe that because they are not smart enough (see the first point above) to recognize and self-audit the personal feelings that influence their analyses. Add enormous ego to that equation and you wind up with scenarios such as the one we are watching develop this week, wherein all the reporters who never saw this coming (i.e. literally all of them) are now trying to suggest that they have any sort of insight or authority over what's going to happen next. Who the hell cares if some columnist or blogger with a boatload of Twitter followers "doesn't expect" Tebow to get signed by the Eagles? Every jackass with a byline out there wrote his career off and didn't expect him to get a workout in the first place, but *now* their words are supposed to carry weight? Please.
My whole point is don't get all worked up and upset over these guys and their act. It may look on the surface as though they have some sort of influence on the outcome of this issue, but they don't. They really don't. All they have, individually, are a set of press credentials and a self-selected audience of impressionable ass-kissers that like to hang with the schoolyard bully. Big deal.
Oh, Kathryn, I agree with your wholeheartedly. Just it seems that I lose my cool every once a year where the vitriol gets really out of hand and with those predictable few that really take themselves too seriously. I'm glad that I have some reporters in my TL that have really shown an admirable act of self restraint or they just feel like it's not that big of a deal to over react that a "former" player gets a workout for the team that is really tailored for him to run the offense.
If anyone has any leads on video of the workout, that would be great. Keep your eyes open, inform us in the dark!
And also, to the point why wasn't he signed right away. Would you sign a certain roster guy in TT if you're trying to trade your third string? I wouldn't. I would show my card with that and I would know that everyone knows I will straight up release Barkley.
The kind of PR offensive we are getting from Team Tebow which includes all the House, Dedauex interviews etc. is something I have been wanting to see since last season, which I mentioned in some of my commentaries from that time. I was a little puzzled when it did not happen last season but I am sure they must have had very good reasons.
All the attention about Tim's new throwing motion is beginning to have a positive effect & beginning to take hold in peoples conciousness. There are stories beginnning to come forth from reporters who were once critical & now are beginning to slowly understand what we have been talking about for the last 2 years. The Albert Breer piece being an excellent example.
If the league at large does become accepting to signing Tim, of course I would like to see him play anywhere but I would like to see him either in New England or Philly because of the respectful way they treated him while the rest of the league looked the other way.
If he makes it back & signs with Philly Chip Kelly would have just staged the greatest coup in football history.
Hm. Not to sound too negative, but I didn't get the sense there was said anything in favor of Tim. Just that he worked hard the last couple of years. We knew that before him. It seems like the media is catching up on what TT has been doing last two years. As if they thought he only played catch with his brother in between his broadcasting gigs. Sheeeesh.
It neither brimmed with enthusiasm nor negativity. Breer gave a fair assessment of the landscape moving forward and Eisen refrained from engaging in jackassery, which is the most positive reaction we're ever gonna get out of him.
I'm with Kathryn. Treating Tim like any other player is the best we are going to get. And that is enough. Once teams see they can look at Tim without catching ESPN and TMZ sorting through their trashcans at night, they will feel more comfortable kicking the tires and evaluating him on his merits.
Plus, Breer did express undisguised admiration for Tim's hard work and determination. If that narrative takes hold, Tim's presence goes back to being a net positive.
I don't know how much sway media opinions have in the NFL. I suspect very little on substantive decisions. You win the Super Bowl by trusting the stopwatch and game film, not Albert Breer. HOWEVER, every OC wants to become an HC, and every VP of Player Personnel wants to become a GM. Those chances are earned largely through reputation, and media regard is a factor in building reputation. Taking away the reputation risk will make underlings more willing to touch the live wire that is Tebow.
I agree with both of your takes. Cheerleaders are on the sidelines, all we are looking for from the media is a fair assesment. Which is what he gave. What did you all make of Breer's comments concerning the workout??? That it "by all indications went ok" & that "if it had been eye popping they would have signed Tim already" they don't need to trade Barkley. I am trying as best I can to keep my thoughts neutral & just letting things develop but it's hard not to speculate.
AB's analysis of the tea leaves isn't absurd or illogical; again, he's drawn some fair conclusions. That said, it's his job to draw conclusions and his best bet is to take a conservative view rather than predict a quixotic scenario that may not materialize. What is clear is that he's got little to no more inside knowledge on the situation than any one of us, so take his respectable opinion for what it is. IMO he's been fair and objective; and the only place I would ask him to expand on at this point is the Barkley factor. His points in that regard were all valid; and there had long been talk of putting Barkley in the yard sale pile, but it's hard to dismiss the fact that the Eagles went public with their intentions to dump him within an hour of Tim's workout.
Thanks Kathryn: That helped affirm & put it in perspective for me.
I have a theory as to what Kelly & the Eagles may have in mind & what their short & long range plans might be but I am going to keep them to myself for now while we see how all this unfolds.
Just for the record I don't think Tim has gotten enough credit for resisting the calls for him to play fullback or tight end. I never bought into those ideas.
I think the Eagles source was quoted as saying the workout was "fine". That's great IMO. It's too much to expect "holy crap, he's the greatest passer ever!". Previously, Tim did not throw "fine" in the eyes of the league. With his athleticism and intangibles, were he just an average passer he would be on a team. If Tom House made him an average passer, that's good enough.
I think the House comments were very insightful, especially his emphasis on "spin". That was one of Tim's big downfalls. He may throw 6 or 8 solid passes, but 1 or 2 out of every 10 was a wounded duck. If he could not control that issue, it is no wonder that coaches were not willing to put their faith in him to execute their fancy offensive systems. It would be kind of like a pro golfer who hit some brilliant shots, but sliced every 6th tee shot into the woods.
Kathryn found this instagram video of Tim working out today. I think it may be the only footage of Tim throwing in the wild since Dilfer. Looking at the way they filmed and edited the action, it looks like they were trying to avoid showing Tim. However, you can see him throwing the 4th pass.
I think he looks damn good. He holds the ball high, gets it out fairly quick, and there is no evidence of that ugly hitch he used to have. Now he needs to do it under fire.
Kathryn also pointed out that one of the receivers, Austin Pettis, is an actual NFL receiver who is currently on a team (the Chargers). That is all kinds of awesome. If he really is throwing better, word will get around. Receivers know what a good ball looks like, and they have credibility because they put their bodies on the line to catch passes. Players talk to coaches.
As hard as it is, we just need to be patient and give him and Sexton time to work it. This thing is headed in the right direction, and something good is going to break sooner or later.
The throwing definetly looks alot better those balls had some zip on them when the ball hit the recievers hands you could hear the pop. Do you still think he will do the combine?? I don't think he will.
Here is a link to an article that came out today written by Brady Quinn about Tim. I read it with one eye open & one closed because of their competitive history. Some points were valid others were a bit of a stretch. Especially that he called the Bronco 2011 defense dominant, I guess he was watching a different defense than I was ;).
link is: www.footballbyfootball.com/column/the-curious-case-of-tim-tebow
Hi Bob. I came here to post the link also after starting the read. I'll finish it later tonight when I get home from work. I'll laugh out loud also when I read that 'dominant defense' line. I watched every snap that year here in Denver and dominant isn't a word I'd use. Situationally aware might be a better one.
Anyway, I'm hoping I get some 'honest insight' from old Mr. Quinn in the article, we'll see.
Ed. I agree with your characterization ... passive aggressive.
Bob. Thanks for the link.
I just watched the two clips Brady referenced and in both cases; I suspected they were the plays I remembered in my mind's eye. Brady's analysis of what Tim should have done in those plays comes from a traditional NFL mentality. In both of those plays, I'm 100% certain Tebow knew exactly what he was going to do before the snap of the ball.
1) In the Miami game, the Bronco's needed a 2-point conversion to tie the game in regulation. There isn't a chance Tebow was going to alert to a pass when he knew he could win the game with the same off-tackle trap play he has run his entire life. Now, a typical NFL QB like Quinn would 'alert to a pass' because the option of running off-tackle isn't part of his repertoire. According to this article (http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2011/10/25/why-were-the-miami-dolphins-in-a-nickel-defense-on-tim-tebows-2-point-conversion), the Dolphins had their 'lighter' linemen, linebackers & cornerback in the game. Tebow was a skilled 230 lb running QB, he's not going to pass in that situation; he's going to win the game with an off-tackle keeper. VIDEO: https://youtu.be/789qT6cfb6k?t=9m7s
2) In the Jets' game, I specifically remember the Jets' Smith taking too steep an angle and Tebow noticeably glancing over at Smith on the left side. Yes, Brady Quinn, you and any other traditional QB would have 'alerted to pass' because you knew you couldn't turn the corner past the outside edge of the contain man. Tebow literally baited Smith into rushing when he faked a drop-back and then took him to school. VIDEO: https://youtu.be/ewAk196S6R8
I can only assume Brady Quinn and others in the NFL still don't get it ... Tebow is unconventional by traditional NFL standards. Hey, does Tebow need to improve his accuracy, decision making, release time, etc. Sure. Hopefully with House, Tim has knocked down a number of tall poles the NFL brass perceive as show-stoppers.
Articles like this only reinforce my opinion that it will take an unconventional Head Coach & Front Office to see the value in Tebow on an NFL franchise. Chip Kelly is that guy. Pete Carroll is also that guy, he just happens to already have an unconventional, creative QB on his roster.
*** As an aside, I've been thinking about ESPN sending Tebow to Oregon for 2 days to spend time with and interview Mariota for the National Championship Game this year. I suspect Chip Kelly sees that these two (Tebow & Mariota) could co-exist on a Chip Kelly roster and complement each other's strengths without petty jealousy getting in the way. At least much less than other QB Ego's out there ... Sanchez, etc. If Chip does maneuver to draft Mariota, I think this further strengthens the case for Tebow on the Eagles. If Chip can't get Mariota, Tebow is a great alternative to lead his power running spread offense for the NFL. ***
Sorry for the length, but, wanted to get a couple of points out there. RonDog.
Ron Dog: I couldn't have said it all bellter myself. I think you nailed it.
Alot of the conventional playcallers like Quinn may have called the right play by conventional standards & then failed in it's execution. I would rather have Tim & his unconventional ways than Quinn & many others.
I hope when Tim does return he is able to blend what he has learned over the past two years, with the creativity & instinct he used to play with. If he can do this there is no telling what he will be able to accomplish.
Listen to this quote from Trent Dilfer who spent the day today watching Tim throw: "He looked great all he needs is a shot & he will thrive".
One would have to assume the Eagles saw the same thing. Like Ed said previously the word will get around. Lets keep the faith!
Bob. I agree with your comment about Tim blending recent accuracy with creativity / instinct. You hear some coaches and ex-coaches talk about how great it is to have a QB who can extend plays when they aren't talking about Tebow. You also hear some defensive coaches talk about how hard it is to cover when the play is extended by the QB.
As you say, the key will be for Tebow to be selective / intentional in how he uses his running ability. I feel Tebow has the potential to offer a game similar to Russel Wilson, but with a slightly more aggressive and frequent running style. With Chip asking his offense to run the Read Option on EVERY play they run, Tebow's running threat could have defenses completely off kilter.
Also, we just said goodbye to friends visiting and I've missed Dilfer's latest comments. I'll try to find them.
The Brady Quinn article really has me hot under the collar. So much so that I violated my own rule about becoming THAT GUY, the crazy Tebow fan. But people were kissing his rear end for what clearly was a hostile article masked with a veneer of goodwill, and it just irritated me.
Ultimately he has shot himself in the foot. His reputation is now sealed, and any teammate, past or future, knows he's going to have to look over his shoulder to make sure BQ isn't in the proverbial room. Not a good look for the de facto captain of the team.
Any player personell person that paid any mind to the Quinn article would deserve to have him & his career TD to INT ratio as his quarterback. He obviously needs the combine his lack of prodution speaks for itself. Right play call or not.
Tebow on the other hand IMO & his own, does not need the combine to prove his wares. Tom House, Trent Dilfer & a Eagle workout is enough for me & him.
Tim throwing with Brees encourages me as much as anything. I've never been there so I don't know for sure, but I gotta guess the NFL is a big frat and people talk. If Tm is throwing with Brees, and looks good, word is going to get around. Someone is going to smell a bargain and grab him. As I have said numerous times before, at the end of the day the league is ruled by self interest, and if a coach or GM thinks they can steal a leg up on the other teams then they will sell their own mother to do so.
Yea that's an excellent point about Brees, I forgot that one. There is alot of angst today among Tebow fans that he is not at the combine. I would venture to guess that quarterback being such a high profile position is not necessarily what the scouts at the combine are looking for. Quarterbacks are hard to overlook. I think he has been doing the right things recently with his training the word definetly is getting around.
As an aside: I loved the pictures of him with Manny Pacquiao.
Once upon a time I was all worked up about the Combine, but events of the last week cured me of that, and I was confident he would not be there today.
His team is engaging in a deliberate campaign to change the narrative about him, and I think they are succeeding.
There are two parts of the narrative that have to be changed. The first is the obvious "Tebow can't throw" crap. The second, less obvious, is the "circus" reputation. They have to get people comfortable with the notion that Tebow can exist as a backup without causing a huge disruption.
One great thing about the Eagles tryout: even if they don't sign him, it shows other teams they can work him out without the world imploding. Yeah there will be some extra twitter posts, and maybe a few dozen reporters will bug their PR department for a day or two, but it's really no big deal.
As hard as it is, we have to be patient. This may take some time.
Ron Dog retweeted something today that is worth mentioning. Jason Cole is one of those smart asses that used to chip at Tebow any chance they got, and he sad this today: https://soundcloud.com/bleacherreportradio/jason-cole-says-tim-tebow-a-valuable-commodity-to-chip-kellys-eagles-as-practice-qb
I agree with everything you said; believe it or not I believe the seeds for the changing narritve about him were set with the SEC television gig. People got to see him on TV regularly & got comfortable with him. It dispeled alot of the negative things that were said & written about him.
Pete Carroll had some very candid remarks today about the last minute Super Bowl play. His remarks were on pro football talk.
He says it is "something that will never go away" & that Russell Wilson was devestated but that it was not necessarily a bad thing they can use it for motivation.
I didn't think it was a bad play call, they had momentum from the previous play & they tried to quick strike. More often than not that play would have succeded. The Pats & Malcolm Butler just had a better answer.
So, there are a couple of threads in play that seem to point to another possible landing spot for Tebow. There is a strong rumor that Coach Ken Whisenhunt will trade the Titans' 2nd overall pick to the chargers for Philip Rivers (He knows him well).
The Chargers would select Mariota at #2 as their potential franchise QB. I could see McCoy bringing in Tebow as a QB2 to run a similar Spread/Read Option offense to what they would undoubtedly customize for Mariota.
This is a long shot and I'd personally like to see Tebow with the Eagles over the Chargers; but, could see this going down. Also, Tebow would probably play sooner with the Eagles with Bradshaw so fragile and Sanchez's eminent folding act with the pressure on him.
Awful quiet out there. But, I'm choosing to believe that if a team had designs on Tebow, they would not tip their hand before all the remaining decent free agent WR/TE's (ie. Miles Austin) can be scooped up, the actual NFL draft and then the UDFA's are culled following the draft. A team may have Tebow as part of their plans; but, as we know during these off-seasons, plans change with so many pieces in motion.
I think Tebow will get a shot with someone. If I had to guess who, I'd say the following teams are in play (in priority order): 1. EAGLES (With or without Chip getting Mariota in the draft) 2. CHARGERS (following San Diego <> Tennessee Draft swap and Mariota selection by San Diego) 3. SEAHAWKS (QB2 behind Wilson)
BTW. While I would not want Tebow on the Browns, I still think he should have been part of Coach Pettine's plans: strong Defense with ball control spread option offense with Tebow behind center.
However, the Brown's hired a wild-card at OC this year ... John DeFilippo. His path to NFL OC isn't rich in experience to say the least. Maybe he's an offensive prodigy, who knows. See his resume below.
John DeFilippo’s Coaching Background: 2000 Fordham University, quarterbacks coach 2001-02 University of Notre Dame, graduate assistant coach 2003-04 Columbia University, quarterbacks coach 2005-06 New York Giants, offensive quality control coach 2007-08 Oakland Raiders, quarterbacks coach 2009 New York Jets, assistant quarterbacks coach 2010 San Jose State University, quarterbacks coach 2011 San Jose State University, offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach 2012-14 Oakland Raiders, quarterbacks coach 2015- Cleveland Browns, offensive coordinator
Ron Dog: All three of the scenarios you pointed to make sense but it also makes sense for a half dozen other teams & Since Chip broke the ice & gave Tim his workout I don't know what to make of the silence that has followed from the rest of the teams.
Are the Eagles the only team that does their homework?? What are the other QB needy teams doing?? Why haven't they brought Tim in for a workout?? The Eagles proved it could be done without too much fanfare.
Wherever he goes it has to be a good fit, with the right circumstance. So far Chip seems to be the only one willing to act outside the box.
I think there are basically 2 groups of teams under consideration: the Eagles, and everybody else. Tim has a reasonable chance with Philly, and next to zero chance with anyone else ... at this time.
There are four factors keeping teams from considering Tim. 1) Passing mechanics. 2) System fit. 2) The "circus". 3) Peer pressure.
Nothing has changed for 31 teams. They have not watched him throw since he worked with Tom House, so they do not believe he has improved. Even if he has improved, they do not want to deal with the media and fan attention that comes with him. And if they are ever tempted to relook their assumptions, the threat of being mocked by the rest of the league deters them.
Only Chip has crossed the line. He has clearly demonstrated by his actions that he is not afraid of media scorn or peer pressure. He has seen Tim throw, so he knows whether Tim has improved or not. And his system has long been described as an ideal fit for Tebow.
The rest of the teams are content to watch Chip cross the ice alone. If Chip does not sign Tim, they will conclude that Tim did not impress in his workout, and he will probably never get another look by anyone.
I think we have to accept that Tim is getting the best and fairest shot he could ever hope for. Chip Kelly has personally watched Tim throw. He knows Tim is available for a song. He knows Tim is a good fit for his system. He does not care about the circus. He does not care about his peers. It is the perfect situation.
Will Chip actually sign him? Who knows. I personally think he is maneuvering to grab Mariota if he falls far enough to be affordable. In that case, Chip probably sees Tim as a good fit as a #2 or #3. If Mariota goes in the top 10, and Chip is stuck with Bradford and Sanchez, then Tim is a bad fit and probably gets left out in the cold.
Well said Ed. Agree with all of your points with only a couple of slight variations:
1. I'm not 100% sure other team(s) haven't taken a look at Tim; either in person or on tape. Even though Tebow is tracked (stalked) pretty closely, there is a remote chance other teams have taken a look.
2. I think Chip would still bring Tebow on as QB2/3 if his QB1 was Bradford next season. If Tebow's accuracy and form have improved, as advertized, Tebow's style would be closer to a Mariota than a Bradford and provide Chip with another offensive look (perhaps even a preferred look) over a less mobile Bradford and Sanchez.
I completely agree that the Eagles are the best fit for Tebow and also represent the best chance for him to thrive.
I still can't help but think Bradford & Sanchez are primarily commodities for Chip to use on or before NFL Draft Night. If, as reported, the Browns still want to trade for Bradford, others might too.
What's fun about 'ol Chip is that he reminds me so much of the way Jimmy Johnson blew up his roster and orchestrated 51 trades in 5 years with the Cowboys. I know that Jerry Jones also claims credit for initiating the Walker trade and all the other moves; but, I personally think Jimmy Johnson was the architect in Big D. Chip has the same 'I don't give a flip' character that Johnson had in Dallas; something you need in the NFL when you constantly buck conventional wisdom.
I am going to split the difference on the respective points you guys made.
First I agree with Ed that nothing has changed for the other 31 teams. For some of those teams not to at least show some curiosity in Tim's new mechanics suggests a degree of bias that nothing short of a miracle will change & even that might not be enough. Years even decades of futility has not been enough to even give this guy a look. To bolster this point I will point to the Chandler Harnish signing yesterday by the Cardinals. It looks like they haven't changed their modus operandi since last years Ryan Lindley playoff debacle.
It's sad that teams are more afraid of being mocked by taking a chance on Tim than they are by the lack of production on the field or the prospect of signing contracts on players as long as it fits standard protocol.
On the other hand I am more in line with Ron Dog's thinking when it comes to Chip bringing him to the Eagles. Based on Chip's comments after the workout, I believe that Tim impressed enough that at some point Chip will give him a shot whether he get's Mariotta or not. It just has to be too tempting to see a durable 240 lb. QB who can run (& THROW) with a track record of winning to not take a chance. It may not necessarily be in the conventional way we are used to seeing but I believe Tim is warming up in the bullpen. For whatever necessity may arise.
While I also believe he is manuvering to get Mariotta he will probably have to trade up all the way to #2 to do it. To be able to do that like Ron Dog says either Bradford or Sancez or both plus some high draft picks would have to be the price. Therefore making it unlikely.
There are so many variables at play that it makes this alot of fun to watch & also try to predict what might happen.
Personally I am rooting for Chip to have as much success as Jimmy Johnson did. I hope a part of this success will include Tim. The only difficulty for me would be having to get used to those Green uniforms. ;)
INTT, but man. Does anyone ever thinks about how he feels about being a punch line all the time!? I can't handle my thoughts after a small fight with my wife, I have no idea how I would handle that. And he makes a ton of dollares is a shitty argument. I mean, will it ever end???
There are alot of rumors flying around right now some seem to be more crediible than others with the usual posturing going on right before the draft. One rumor that might some validity is the prospect of Phillip Rivers being swapped for Tennesse's #2 pick. I heard Teddy Bruschi giving some very good reasons why it would benefit both teams. I always liked Bruschi. During Tim's run in Denver when most all the other commentators were ripping him, Bruschi was very fair & went so far as to say that Tim was showing us a different way of doing it. So I respect his commentary.
Anyway he says Rivers because of his intensity & stature as a verteran would provide an instant lift to the Tennesee franchise & have instant credibility in the locker room with the players. Rivers & Wisenhunt have worked together before so there would be familiarity in knowing each other. He opines that the Titans do not believe Mettenberger is their guy going forward & Wisenhunt may not have time to develop a young Quarterback. On the San Diego side he believes both the Chargers & Rivers could benefit with a fresh start & that Mike McCoy having worked with Tim in Denver is flexible enough in his coaching to be able to adapt to Marriota's style of play & it would be good for Marriota because he would be closer to where he played at Oregon. Maybe this is one to watch. As far as Tim's prospects in this scenario are concerned, I believe McCoy would be interested in looking at Tim if he has the authority to do it. Tim was recently throwing to one of San Diego's recievers & LA is close enough to San Diego that's it's possible that some of their scouts have seen Tim throw.
Another rumor that got my attention of course involved the Eagles. (It just wouldn't feel right if the Eagles were not involved ;).
The link Bleedinggreennation.com claims there are talks going on between Cleveland & Philly to send Bradford to Cleveland in exchange for Manziel & some draft picks so Philly can then turn around & trade those bevy of picks to move up for Mariotta.
Philadelphia fans are not known for being very patient & while we have liked Chip's boldness he is under a very bright light.
My theory is that Chip is attempting the NFL version of the eBay trick where some kid starts with a paperclip and gradually trades up to a car. His ultimate objective would be to accumulate sufficient picks to move up and grab Mariota.
That would be fine with me, as I think Chip scouted Tim specifically to assess his suitability as a backup to Mariota if they lucked into him.
I've been preaching patience, but the timing is starting to worry me.
Phase I of the offseason begins on April 20 for most teams, including the Eagles. During that phase, which lasts 2 weeks, teams can conduct strength and conditioning and limited classroom work.
During phase II, teams can conduct individual and group field practice, but no full team drills or live contact. Phase II starts the first week in May for most teams.
Any team even remotely serious about any QB is going to want him on the team for phase II, and probably for classroom work in phase I. If we don't see the Eagles make a move for Tim by April 20, that is worrisome. If we don't see them make a move for him by the Monday after the draft, he's toast.
I'm surprised Barkley hasn't been dealt or released yet.
They are really gambling pinning their fortunes on an often injured Bradford & a shaky Sanchez. Of course getting Mariotta or Manziel is no guarantee of success either but he would have the mobile QB's he likes.
First round QB's usually turn out to be busts. They usually are expected to come in & be the saviors for bad teams. They get thrown into the fire too soon & it normally backfires.
I was worried when I heard Manziel may be part of a deal with the Browns. If the Eagles have Manziel on the roster that wouldn't leave any room for Tim.
If they don't make a move for Tim after the draft I guess the best we could hope for would be that things have not gone according to plan & we would have to hope for an off the street signing.
Categorical statements usually blow up in my face, but I'll go ahead and venture that the Manziel rumor is too clever by half. It may be based in truth, as it's certainly plausible that the Browns have interest in trading for Sam Bradford, but Manziel is damaged goods with little value other than theoretical 'system fit'. The rumor suggests a 1st round pick and Manziel in exchange for Bradford. Chip would get more value out of taking a 1st round pick and a package of later round picks or even 2016 picks instead of Manziel because he's got a cheaper, more durable 'theoretical system fit' option at his disposal that doesn't come with a cocaine dealer on speed dial.
All that said, the Mariota rumor itself also feels too clever by half, but I guess we'll wait and see.
I think the basic trade is Bradford for a first. The Browns are probably just looking for a way to get rid of him without looking like they have absolutely nothing to show for their pick last year. For Kelly, he's like free undercoating or floormats when you buy a new car. Just a trick for the salesman to jack up his commission. Who knows, maybe Kelly can package him with a 6th to trade up for a 5th, which he then packages with a 4th and his baseball card collection to trade up for a 3rd, and so forth.
Yes I knew about that, but he was supposedly near UF on the same day as UF's Pro Day. Obviously he didn't take part in Pro Day-the media would have been all over that-, but I'm hoping he had a private workout w/at least 1 team.
Don't know about any private workouts but it was pointed out the other day that SEC network people were out on the college campuses covering spring football & as far as I know Tim hasn't been making the SEC rounds. Hopefully this is a sign that he has things going on as far as playing is concerned.
Right, Greg McElroy represented SEC Network at UF Pro Day. You'd think if TT were going to do any preseason assignments for SECN it would be something like that.
It's pretty clear he made a conscious decision to put his broadcast career on hold after the end of the 2014 season while he made another run at the NFL. His focus has been excellent, and encouraging.
I'm getting tired of obsessively checking Twitter for news. For better or for worse, a definitive end is coming and we are within 30 days of knowing if he will ever get another shot. I'll give it a week or two after the draft.
I still think his best and perhaps only shot is with the Eagles after Chip gets Mariotta. The pieces just all fit together so nicely. Unfortunately there is so much media focus on Mariotta right now, it is hard to see him falling low enough that Chip would be willing to pay the price to move up. I take him at his word when he says he won't bet the farm, and he would certainly have to do that to move to #2.
The Dawg pound deserves so much better than they have been given. They are among the most loyal & most passionate fans in the country. It's hard to believe with their track record the Browns haven't even hinted at giving Tim a look. Especially after Chip gave them cover as far as being mocked goes.
Is it possible that Mariotta could do something similar to what Eli Manning & Elway did in refusing to sign with the teams that drafted them in order for Chip to be able to work a deal???
Personally I am not going to give up on Tim's prospects for playing if he is not signed for a training camp. I will quit believing when he says he has stopped trying or stops working out towards that end. I believe that if Chip is forced to go with Bradford & Sanchez at some point he will need to turn to another quarterback & hopefully that would be Tim.
Will the Jaguars win more than 4 games this year???
I'm not as convinced that TT's fate with the Eagles is exclusively tied to a Mariota signing. It obviously wouldn't hurt but I think we're getting too caught up in the Mariota speculation and missing the forest for the trees. I'm more inclined to believe that this is about disaster preparation and replacing the QB3 position irrespective of who sits at the top of the depth chart. Barkley is gone. The decision has been made and his replacement won't be waiting at the bottom of the barrel in the draft; that's why Chip worked out a stable of veteran quarterbacks this free agency. Among them only Tebow and Terrelle Pryor are particularly recognized for their mobility. Josh Freeman is less so and Thad Lewis not at all, which again suggests that the ability to compliment a Mariota-centric system was not necessarily Chip's primary metric. What he was looking for in my opinion was instead a durable player that can effectively run and pass a simplified package of plays that will give the team a fighting chance should disaster take down their other QB's. Going out on a limb, I think he found that player when he worked out TT, and admitted as much when he posted Barkley on eBay less than an hour later. At this point his objective at that position is to exploit as much potential trade value out of Barkley as possible. Signing his replacement now - whoever he is - will only undermine that effort. As always we just have to wait and see how transactions shake out following the draft.
Kathryn, I think your reasoning is sound and could certainly be correct. I hope it is. The only evidence to contradict it would be the recent signing of Sanchez. It seems crazy to repeat the Jets 2012 scenario voluntarily. Not even Chip is that impervious to scorn and ridicule. When the Tebow Eagles workout rumors started, we thought they were absurd precisely because Sanchez was there.
Maybe Chip is preparing for 2 outcomes: with and without Mariotta. If MM falls within reach at a price he is willing to pay, he brings in one or two mobile backups with a similar style of play and goes all in with the spread option. If MM goes too high in the draft, he goes with a competition between Bradford, Sanchez, and Barkley (or someone else). They can all put their feet in 5 gallon buckets to avoid the temptation to run. Or wear concrete shoes. Philly fans know how to do that.
An alternative explanation would be that Sanchez is also trade bait. If they didn't sign him then they couldn't trade him. It is not an overly expensive contract for a veteran, with $5M guaranteed over 2 years.
Let's just take Chip at his word for the mo' and assume Bradford at #1 and Sanchez at #2. Now he runs the calculus on Tebow at #3 and inactive for the games in which both Bradford and Sanchez are healthy. Add to that the trashing Tebow's reputation as a player has taken and the added benefit that Chip isn't a buffoon when it comes to media management and we're no longer looking at the Jets 2012 scenario. Besides, logic would suggest that the so-called circus is indiscriminate, no? So why consider Tebow at all if adding him to the roster is going to psychologically cripple the guys ahead of him on the depth chart - whoever they may be? I don't think Chip just worked the guy out without giving it any thought.
All that said, we're not taking Chip at his word so anything is possible. I am more and more convinced, however, that this whole Mariota thing is pie-in-the-sky, and that Chip's interest in TT has little to do with him. I think it has more to do with the fact that he can adequately pass and run a QB3 package, won't snap like a twig when he gets hit, and isn't Ryan Lindley.
Another thing that bodes well for TT is all those other QB's Chip worked out Pryor, Lewis, & Freeman have all been signed by other teams leaving only Tim available. If their intention from the beginning was to give him a fair shot sooner or later the Eagles will. He has way too much upside.
Another way of looking at it is that Pryor, Lewis, and Freeman have all been signed, and Tim has not. Considering none of them made a team last year, that does not bode well for Tim.
One thing we know for sure: the Eagles have actually seen Tim's new throwing motion. If there is an upside there, they know it. There is zero downside to bringing him in as a camp arm to see what he can do. Therefore, if they do not bring him in, his mechanics must not be as improved as we hope.
I agree it makes sense to hold off on signing Tim while they still hope to trade Barkley. But those hopes are dwindling and will basically disappear after the draft.
I suppose in theory Chip failing to get MM could make him more desperate and willing to bring in anyone. He won't feel good about going into the season with his current lineup. His 2 freebie years are done and he's on the clock this season.
>>Another way of looking at it is that Pryor, Lewis, and Freeman have all been signed, and Tim has not. Considering none of them made a team last year, that does not bode well for Tim.<<
And even another way of looking at it is that Chip didn't move on either of those three, either. So it really doesn't say anything about Tim.
>>Therefore, if they do not bring him in, his mechanics must not be as improved as we hope.<<
I don't agree with this conclusion either, not after Dilfer stuck his neck out a second time to say he's ready and that all he needs is an opportunity.
>>I suppose in theory Chip failing to get MM could make him more desperate and willing to bring in anyone.<<
I don't think he's betting the farm on landing Mariota. I think he'd be happy to get him, but isn't setting himself up for desperation in the event that it doesn't happen.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Pryor, Lewis, and Freeman have anything to do with Chip's decision making process. I'm saying that they illustrate the personnel process in the rest of the league. The clock is ticking and teams are locking in the last few roster spots before offseason training starts next week. When known duds like Freeman get swept up, it is a sign that the roster makers are into the odds-and-ends phase and the window for Tim to get signed by anyone is closing fast.
It could be true that Chip is holding off on signing Tim while he tries to trade Barkley. I sure hope so. However, if we are honest with ourselves, there is more than a little wishful thinking driving that conclusion.
Right behind Chip Kelly and Bill Belichick, the Seahawks' Pete Carroll might be the only other NFL HC that could ably handle the press with Tebow on the roster. Key word is 'ably'; I believe other coaches and front offices could handle a Tebow addition, but, would they.
I'd prefer Tebow on the EAGLES with Bradshaw and Sanchez ahead of him on the depth chart; but, would take a class organization like the SEAHAWKS any day.
One proviso. There are a couple of characters on the SEAHAWKS that I'm not a huge fan of (ie. Michael Bennett, etc.). But, on the whole, they would be a team that values Tebow's strengths. Ron
I have never understood the Seahawk's lack of interest in Tim. He is a great system fit. Tebow and Lynch running the read option would be terrifying. And we know Richard Sherman, an outspoken friend of Tim's, would not be shy about advocating for him. You would think a guy like Pete Carroll wouldn't give a crap about the noise.
I think perhaps they were just worried about undermining their young franchise QB. That shouldn't be a factor this year, especially after Wilson gets a monster contract extension that makes him the highest paid player in the NFL.
Still, if Carroll were really interested in Tim he would have worked him out already. They have had plenty of chances, and the clock is ticking on OTAs in a week.
Looking into Seattle got me thinking. We spend a lot of time talking about head coaches who might like Tim. However, the general managers actually decide the roster in most cases. The HC gets a vote, but the GM owns the decision. Here is an interesting run down of NFL GM's from best to worst:
The only reason Tim got a look from the Eagles was because Chip took over the roster decisions from his GM predecessor who was not a Tebow supporter although strangely enough he is also a Florida Grad. For whatever reason the GM's as a collective body have decided that Tebow is unworthy of roster consideration & so far none have been willing to step outside this confining box. There is no other conclusion to be drawn from the lack of interest in not giving Tim a look. This may be the one case in which they will gladly leave this stone unturned instead of looking to see what might be underneath in an effort to get an edge on the other teams.
I just heard an interview with one of the really good guys, Champ Bailey who definitely thinks Tim should get another chance to play. He says Tim had everyone against him because of his unconventional style of play. He thinks Tim because he is unconventional would fit nicely with an unconventional coach like Chip Kelly. Hopefully Chip Kelly feels the same way. It is probably Tim's only hope. I wasn't concerned when Pryor, Freeman, Lewis & some of these other Qb's were signed by other teams because I never felt Tim would get a chance with any of them I was just glad the Eagles did not sign them. Bailey says he hasn't seen him throw lately but if he is improved there is no doubt he could play.
I wish there were more GM's like Champ Bailey & Tedy Bruschi.
Yep. Expected but unnerving. Some theories: 1) Chip is waiting to see if he can trade Barkley. 2) Chip is waiting to see if he can get Mariotta. 3) Chip didn't like what he saw, or never intended to sign him in the first place.
Teams are guarding their intentions closely, so I doubt we'll hear anything before the draft, but we should know within a few days afterward.
After that, his last chance would be as a camp arm. Pats maybe? Also, CFL training camps start in early June.
Some great stuff from Bob on the previous thread. We appear to be having technical problems, so I'm going to repost it here, courtesy of Bob:
ReplyDelete"Some REALLY REALLY encouraging news for us Tebow fans:
I just heard an interview with Antonio Brown where he was about his workouts with Tebow this week & if he thought Tebow would get another opportunity to play quarterback in the NFL.
He said quote: " He is motivated, he can still squat the house, he is still ready to play & he is working, he is preparing like it, he is thinking about, he is forseeing it so I think it's a possibility".
The interview was on the Jim Rome show.
I continue to believe it WILL happen. Someone will take action & give this guy his rightly deserved chance."
Thanks for writing that for me Ed. Finally something solid & positive from an NFL guy we can take serouisly. I had a suspision that something good was happening when I saw a photo of Tim & Antonio working out together earlier this week. It's probably a coincidence or maybe it isn't that Tim is working out with one of the best recievers in the league & not the punter or a special teams guy. :)
DeleteOf course nothing is certain but at least now we have definintive proof that Tim has not given up.
Great find guys. Here's the AUDIO LINK (Tebow comment at 5:26):
Deletehttp://media.kfhradio.com/a/101444764/antonio-brown.htm?q=tebow
You guys will enjoy the first 50 seconds of this. Trust me.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152550795431174
Nice find Kathryn:
DeleteI thought I noticed a knowing sly (in a good way) look on his face when asked about the Cards. It looked like he was eating that up. :) Did you notice the same thing?
It's easy to see why he motivates & brings out the best in his teamamtes. I think the wisdom he espouses to them puts things in context for them & that enables them to perform at their best.
Quick Tebow update: It's been slow going but there are a couple of things of note.
ReplyDelete1) Yesterday he gave an interview on the golf channel & the interviewers once again asked him about his football playing future. I think it's significant that he get's asked this question on all the interviews he gives. His answers of course are coy but if you read between the lines he always let's it be known that he is the best athlete & the best quarterback he has ever been. He recently gave another interview on Fox & their sports guy made it a point of saying that Tim still wants to play. What this means & whether he gets another opportunity or not is still anyone's guess but it's on peoples minds & that's a good thing.
The link is: golfchannel.com/media/tim-tebow-discuss-his-love-golf
Sorry about the loss of your cousin Ed. All congressman should aspire to be like him.
DeleteA really great comment today by Michael Sam about his mindset regarding football and playing it:
ReplyDelete"I tell them the same thing every time: I’ll give up the game when my legs are both broken.
I’m a football player and I will keep fighting for my dream to play in the NFL."
The whole thing here, really good written: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/02/18/michael-sam-first-person-account-nfl-one-year-later/
I don't want to knock Tebow with this, but I haven't seem to remember him saying something like that. And if you think that Tebow has it more against him than this guy, think again.
Luzwei
It would seem that young Mr. Sam has applied his passion for football toward a stint on Dancing With the Stars this season. I recall Tim's statement about the relentless pursuit of his dream to play in the NFL, and he too has since found other endeavors. I don't question the sincerity of either man, but this is a fact of life that we all experience: circumstances change and so do dreams. They both could very well return to the NFL sometime down the road because life is also an unpredictable thing, but as spectators to these tandem suspense stories the only thing we can count on is action, not words.
DeleteThe timing of the DWTS is going itno his favor as there is nothing in NFL in June and July. I would be highly surprised if he lasts into July in the show. Dancers are by default smaller and more flexible. He will look clumsy. And I have nothing against for him to earn a buck to prolong his NFL dream. If he's on an CFL team, and Tim is not that will give you some final perspective.
ReplyDeleteLuzwei
I hold nothing against him, either. To repeat, I don't question the sincerity of either man; and I'm not going to make judgments about dedication on the basis of words alone. What I take issue with are those (not you but others) that would suggest that Tim is a media whore for doing fundamentally the same thing that Michael Sam is doing. There is no basis here to compare either man negatively to the other. They are both making decisions on the basis of the landscape that they see spread out before them, not on what we think we see.
DeleteIMO the timing is bad for the NFL and terrible for the CFL. NFL teams have a heavy schedule of OTAs in May and mini-camp in June. CFL teams have training camp in June. It would be hard to think of a way to undermine your viability as a player more than being unavailable for camp or OTAs, especially for a player with a reputation as not athletic enough for the league. Doing DTWS sends a strong message to the NFL that he is more interested in being a celebrity than a player.
DeleteThe difference comes down to money. Tim had $8.7M in guaranteed money on his Broncos contract, not counting endorsement income. He has extensive investments and close relationships with several wealthy Florida businessmen who mentor him. There is little doubt he is financially secure for life and can pick and choose what he does. IMO he did the ESPN gig because the high profile allowed him to continue to promote his foundation. Also, I have come to realize that Tim harbors long term political ambitions. Finally, I take him at his word that he just loves being around football, especially in the SEC where he is possibly the most popular player ever.
Michael Sam came from a dirt poor family. He made $46K in guaranteed money on his rookie contract. He could have done better teaching PE at high school. He needs a job, and DTWS reportedly pays up to $100K per episode. And let's be honest, his "demographic" (to put the term delicately) is overrepresented in the viewership for DTWS. So yeah, a no brainer for him and the show.
I will say this: if Tim ever does DTWS, this blog will come down before the end of the first episode. And I may just wipe my hard drive to make sure no trace survives of it. Heck, I may burn my laptop.
If and when the time comes...pictures or it didn't happen.
DeleteROFL, I'm like the wind ... I'll just disappear.
DeleteKudos to Kathryn for uncovering proof that Tim is out in LA throwing with Tom House this week. Don't get in an argument with her, because I'm pretty sure she must work for the CIA. But great news for us die hard fans, because it means he is seriously training on his form and not just giving it lip service. Sure do hope he throws at the Vets Combine. Only 3 1/2 weeks til we know for sure.
ReplyDeleteAll of Tim's actions have been consistent with his stated goals of playing again. The only thing standing in his way & which he has not had any control over is the obstinance of those that have been opposed to him & hopefully that will soon change. If for some reason we don't see him throw at the combine the question needs to be asked. Why wasn't Tebow there?
DeleteLol Ed: If he ever does DWTS can you take my laptop too.
P.S. For whatever reason if football doesn't workout I hear Tim can still hit a fastball. Heck if Bo Jackson & Deion Sanders could do it. Why couldn't Tim.
OH??? Video proof? Pictures? I went to Kathryn's twitter, didn't find anything.
DeleteLuzwei
A MiLB prospect that has been working with Tom House tweeted that Tim joined him and the other pro clients in the batting cages yesterday morning. Said that Tim's been working with House. As you know by now House works out of USC. Tim spent a week there earlier this month before returning to the east coast for a week to do some work for his foundation; then late last week returned to USC and has been either at USC or UCLA ever since (UCLA is home base for his old offseason quarterback coach Noel Mazzone). No confirmation that he's working with Mazzone, but we do know he's working with House. I suspect that the media must be aware of this because it's not that hard to suss out, but in the interest of not scaring teams away may be respecting the fact that TT is keeping his head down for the time being.
DeleteA little bit of interesting trivia about Tom House. He caught home run #715 off the bat of Hank Aaron which broke Babe Ruth's longstanding record. He was a relief pitcher for the Atlanta Braves at the time & was in the left field bullpen where he made the catch.
DeleteKathryn and I were starting to get worried that he had given up on the NFL and was just paying lip service to it. Him continuing to work with Tom House is great news. The knock on his previous makeover efforts was that he didn't stay with them long enough for the throwing motion improvements to become permanent, and he reverted to his old form under fire. If 18 months of recurring work with Tom House can't perfect his motion, then he needs to become a fullback. Hopefully that dedicated work, plus a good showing at the vets combine, convinces someone to take a chance.
DeleteOddly, I think two years out of the NFL may work in his favor. The biggest deterrent to a team trying him out was the media glare. He will always be popular and respected, but people have a short attention span and some of the novelty has worn off, so maybe a team will be persuaded that Tebowmania can be suppressed to a tolerable level.
The story about Hank Aaron and #715 brings back memories. I grew up in Atlanta at that time, and was big Braves fan as a kid. In 1973 I was a 4th grader. When he broke 700 home runs, the stadium gate started handing out 12"x12" cards with the number of the next homerun printed on them. Everyone would hold them up when he came to bat. If he hit a homer, you had a cool souvener. I think I have #713 stashed away somewhere in my parents' house.
That's a good story about Hank. I remember seeing it on TV I was about 9 or 10 years old. He must have felt a tremendous sense of relief after he crossed home plate considering all the pressure he was under, which is a shame because that was one of the truly historic achievements in all of sports history.
DeleteTim has never struck me as a lip service kind of a guy. I believe when he says or does something he goes all in. What had always worried me was whether anyone would recognize the dedication, the improvements etc.. & then be willing to step up, sign him & let the chips fall where they may.
Michael Sam will be at the FA combine, per Schefter. It seems he has an out clause on his DWTS contract in the way that TT has an out clause with his ESPN obligations. Good luck to him. Maybe one of these teams will sign him on for preseason and training camp if for no other reason than to save him from DWTS (85% joke, 15% serious).
DeleteIt does concern me a bit that TT's name was not also leaked in connection with the FA combine. It could indicate that he's not on the list. But it could also indicate that Schefter got the info from Sam's side and not from the NFL. I would expect an authorized preliminary list of attendees probably somewhere on or around the 10th (start of free agency), and maybe more leaks sooner. Either way, at least we'll know soon.
Vince Young too.
DeleteHmmm, sudden flow of tweets suggests the NFL just finalized the attendence list, and insiders like Shefter and Rappoport are working their networks to find out juicy names.
If that's the case, the more notable names will trickle out over the next few days. If Tim is on the list, you can bet someone will spill the beans fairly soon.
The NFL page for the vet combine applicants says "The NFL will notify applicants by the end of February.". I find it encouraging that about a week before the end of February, Tim's suddenly out in L.A. again working w/Tom House. And Tim's also suddenly tweeting more often, including a rather cryptic tweet today.
DeleteIf Tim applied, the NFL accepted him. Period. Even if it's for no other reason than to double the ratings they'd get for the vet combine.
Agreed. The only question now is, did he apply? It would seem the work he's been doing with Tom House this month would be a waste of his time if he weren't planning on attending the combine - not to mention an unnecessary waste of Tom House's time when his plate is surely already full with pro baseball clients gearing up for their season.
DeleteDang Brooke & Kathryn:
DeleteExcellent powers of deduction & great detective work. I was thinking along those lines as well but I was cautious about it because I didn't want to be let down once again.
It was rather curious to me that he chose to quote Nelson Mandela & not a Bible Verse. Not that that in itself would necessarily mean anything.
We are all thinking the same thing, that Tim is sending a message with that Mandela quote. He has a long history of that, going all the way back to his eye black in college. It was right at a year ago that D1 tweeted the photo of him in front of the "Perseverance" sign, surely not an accident as well. Given the theme of the quote, and the timing relative to the veteran combine, it is very plausible that the two are connected. But does he hope to get into the combine, or has he gotten into the combine and he hopes it opens some doors?
DeleteEither way, very heartening to see him training hard and not giving up. Not many guys would keep trying for 2 full years, but then not many guys are Tim Tebow.
I'd keep an eye on the Bears this off-season. Cutler is being trashed by just about everyone ever associated with the bears (coaches, staff, players, ball boys): http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/04/a-whole-lot-of-jay-cutlers-ex-coaches-are-ripping-him-anonymously/
ReplyDeleteI wonder if John Fox (HC) & Adam Gase (OC) have another run in them ... with Tebow?
Tebow would have 2x the offensive weapons with this year's Bears over the 2010/11 Broncos.
Certainly a long-shot; but, one to watch. RonDog
How do you swallow a $15M Salary Cap hit in 2015 when you cut Cutler? You bring in a 'known commodity' like Tebow for the NFL minimum salary while you rebuild your squad on both sides of the ball. :-)
ReplyDeleteFrom the previous Article (http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/04/a-whole-lot-of-jay-cutlers-ex-coaches-are-ripping-him-anonymously):
"Now that huge contract is a millstone around the Bears’ necks. It won’t be easy for the Bears to move on from Cutler any time soon, as his $15.5 million 2015 base salary is fully guaranteed, and $10 million of his $16 million 2016 base salary becomes fully guaranteed if he’s still on the Bears’ roster a week from now."
In addittion to the Fox Gase connection, the Bears & Redskins share similar circumstances & have certain built in characteristics that may be advantageous to a Tebow signing.
Delete1) Organizational turmoil. Things are so bad the Bears 96 year old owner who normally keeps to herself was outspoken & angry about the team this past year. It may prompt the team to take a flyer on Tim.
2) Structuctual capacity to handle Tebowmania. The Bears & Skins are both proud big franchises with a strong tradition. Unlike some of the teams who seem content to hire retread after retread they want to win now.
In the case of Cutler this may be one instance where bringing in Tebow as a backup could actually help push Cutler to play better. It might even take some of the pressure off of him going into the season. They could do worse than sign Tebow for the league minimum.
Hopefully if Tim does attend the combine he will perform admirably & it will open some eyes to the potential we have long seen in him & hopefully some of the previous criticism will get muted this time around.
Just saw the first official combine acceptance letter in the wild. Should see a wave of these today and tomorrow. We'll know for sure soon whether he is participating. My money says yes. That is best explanation for him spending all last week and this week at USC throwing with Tom House. I think we'll know today or tomorrow.
DeleteI don't know what to think of Fox. On the one hand, he was part of the decision to kick Tim to the curb, and he experienced Tebowmania at it's second-worst (worst being Jets, of course). On the other hand, he knows better than any coach in the NFL what Tim CAN do, and the intangibles he brings. Also, Adam Gase knows Tim's limitations as well as anyone, so he would be better equipped to recognize game-changing improvements when Tim throws at the combine.
I agree about Fox he was involved in the decision to dump Tim but I don't think he really had any choice but to go along with what Elway wanted regardless. So I am inclined to let him off the hook & hope he would take the initiative to make amends for what happened. He probably has more authority over the direction of the team now in Chicago than he did in Denver. He is working with a young GM so hopefully his input carries a little more clout than it did in Denver. (The Marshall trade surprised me I didn't see that coming. There are probably more bombshells to come.) Same goes for the Mccoy trade. I didn't see that coming either.
DeleteWhile It would undoubtly be a positive development to see Tim participate in the Combine. There are some things I like about it & some things that concern me about it.
1) I like that as opposed to a private workout for one team, every team will get a chance to evaluate him without any preconcieved notions.
2) I also like that the possibility exists that he performs well & could pit several teams against each other where they may actually want to compete for his services. Once one team shows an inkling of interest others should surely follow.
3) A concern I have is every team has known about his rewired mechanics for some time & has not shown any interest previously so unless he really wows them they may overlook the effort. I hope if Tim does throw & throws well there will be some positive publicity that comes out of it that would make it more acceptable for teams to give him a closer look.
At this point I do not see any downside to Tim doing the Combine. The alternative is more of the last 2 years, eg nothing.
DeleteI think teams are not even willing to give Tim a secret workout, because of the risk of it making headlines and pissing their QB's off. The Combine allows them to watch him without anyone noticing.
Bottom line, if Tim wows at the Combine with an improved throwing motion, he might get a team willing to give him one last shot. I do not see another plausible scenario that puts him back in the NFL.
Ha! Some Tebow news via Tom House and Ben Volin ...
ReplyDeletehttp://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/03/07/sunday-football-notes-chip-kelly-show-with-philadelphia-eagles/1Yeerk2t8Cp5PiTGlDigkM/story.html
[The NFL is holding a veteran combine in Phoenix on March 22 for players now out of the league, and one name I’ve heard a few times as a possible participant is Tim Tebow, who we last saw throwing a football in August 2013 for the Patriots. Turns out Tebow has been working diligently with Tom House (also Tom Brady’s personal coach) in Los Angeles over the last two years, sharpening his skills and hoping for one last shot. House told us on Friday that he isn’t sure if Tebow will be attending the combine, but “he went from being a little inaccurate and didn’t throw a whole lot of spirals, to throwing very accurate and real good at spinning the ball.”]
This is the first actual quote I've read from Tom House about Tebow's progress. I love it. Hoping it will bear fruit.
RonDog
Welp. All it took was the briefest of mentions from a legitimate media source and it's already blowing up on Twitter. That's bad news and good news. The bad news is of course the circus factor. Any team considering him is just going to have to put on its big boy pants and suck it up. If nothing else the Pats stint was a clinic on how to quite easily throw a wet towel on media mania. It's not that hard, you just literally have to do the polar opposite of everything the Jets did. The good news is that by definition the appetite to see him back in the league has not diminished one iota and (so far) the response is positive. That will change to some degree as the usual emotionally-invested media blowhards sputter and spew about how he's not an NFL QB, but hopefully the general fanbase is tired enough of intellectually reconciling that and NFL QB Ryan Lindley that they just ignore it.
ReplyDeleteNow all we need is TT to actually attend.
Guess Vince Young won't be attending the combine after all. I am tempering my enthusiasim until I know for sure Tim has been invited. However I really like the way Tim & his people have handled this so far. (Just enough information to get people interested but not too much where it becomes counterproductive.) They seem to be controlling the message at their own pace. I wonder if it was a coincidence or by design that the news was originally released by the Boston Globe.? & if the Pats may still be interested in him.
DeleteSo far most of the press I have read has been accepting of his two years of hard work & the improvements in his accuracy. Having Tom House vouch for him is a very positive sign too.
Onward & Upward
Been going nuts trying to read all the tea leaves on this one. I think it's safe to assume that if Tim had been rejected, he would say so. That leaves two possibilities:
Delete1. He hasn't heard from the NFL yet.
2. He knows he is going but the NFL won't let him say so.
Elite athletes generally need about 2 weeks to taper off of intensive training before a big competition. There is no way they would spring an invite on these guys at the last minute. They want them at peak performance.
Only a few attendee names have been leaked, and one of them (Vince Young) turned out to be false. That suggests the NFL is controlling the release of names, possibly to avoid muddling up the free agent market.
I think #2 is highly probable, and we'll get some happy news in the next few days.
Ed, as I wrote before, the combine application page said the NFL would notify the applicants by the end of February.
Delete"The NFL will notify applicants by the end of February."
https://www.nfl.info/nflsurvey/pd/veterancombine.aspx
As of yesterday, Tim was in the vicinity of the D1 facility he owns in FL. So I assume he's still training there.
Also, yesterday NFL reporter Will Brinson said that Tim missed the 'first' NFL vets combine, but might make it to the 2nd one on 3/22. All I've ever read is that the 3/22 combine *is* the first vets combine. Does anyone know if there was an earlier vets combine?
The Brinson thing was probably just a misstatement.
DeleteIt's safe to assume Tim knows whether he is going or not. I can't believe he would let the current coverage continue if he had been rejected. Ergo I believe he has been accepted and just can't announce it yet.
One thing is for certain: we WILL know sometime in the next 12 days. I think we're going to get the first promising bit of Tebow news in a long time.
Outstanding article written back in December of 2011 while Tebow & the Broncos were on their magical run. Some of the points the article makes are still relevant today & they highlight some of the obstacles that Tim has to overcome in his desire to return.
ReplyDeleteBut as Tim likes to say PERSERVERANCE!
Link: espn.go.com./nfl/story/_lid/7330773/tim-tebow-real-impact-overlooked
the article written by Jeffri Chadiha is well worth a read.
Here is a data point on the release date for the veteran combine roster, courtesy of a Gators fan blog.:
ReplyDeleteOnlyGators.com has spoken with the NFL’s regional combine officials on multiple occasions over the last few weeks but was told that an official roster would not be released either at all or at least until much closer to the event.
As much as we the supporters & fans of Tebow would like a definitive answer sooner it's probably better for Tim that the roster not be released too much in advance if at all. This way the critics & the naysayers won't have any time to spew their nonsense.
DeleteIf Tim does the combine & throws well with a notable undeniable difference in his mechanics hopefully that will be the story coming out of the combine..
On a side note: Does anyone get the reasoning behind what Chip Kelly has been doing? If it is true that he wants Marriota he seems to be giving up alot for that remote possibility. The quaterbacks he's got now are not mobile. Wouldn't a mobile quarterback like Tim be a better fit?
TT not on the list, per azcentral: http://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/03/11/nfl-veterans-combine-participants-list-march-22-arizona/70158648/?hootPostID=%5B%278e56a5d176ed1233caa9dc08d63426f8%27%5D
DeleteWow. Not really sure how to process that. Makes me kind of sick to my stomach. The only words I can think of to express my feelings for the NFL have 4 letters.
DeleteThe link to the list does say 'subject to change', but the only reason I can think of for the NFL to not list Tim's name if he has been accepted is so as to not kill the hype they're getting out of free agency (I'd assumed they weren't going to release the list until after the FA hype had died down). I don't think they'd leave Tim's name off the list as a favor to him to control the media nuttiness. Doesn't look good...
DeleteI just noticed Brady Quinn's name isn't on the list, either. I could swear I read early on that he was going to apply.
DeleteTom House supposedly did a radio interview this week in which he talked about Tim. I've tried googling it, but can't find it. If anyone knows where it is, please post the link.
DeleteAlthough the NFL site says the list is 'subject to change', it can't change much. They said they were going to accept about 100 players & this list has 103 players on it.
What I'm wondering is: why in the world would Tim keep training w/Tom House even AFTER he had to have known he wasn't accepted to the combine (assuming he applied)?
>>why in the world would Tim keep training w/Tom House even AFTER he had to have known he wasn't accepted to the combine<<
DeleteAbsolutely none of this makes any sense. His own trainer is under the impression that he hasn't given up. This thread started with Antonio Brown's remarks suggesting the same thing. He spent roughly three of the last four weeks working out with House, presumably bringing his rewired mechanics back to where he'd left them before embarking on SEC Nation. Why do that if you're not anticipating some sort of workout? The insane optimist in me wishes it were because Sexton's got something lined up, but the realist knows that's not the case. There would be no need for House to pimp him on the radio if Sexton were taking calls.
>>I just noticed Brady Quinn's name isn't on the list, either. I could swear I read early on that he was going to apply.<<
That surprised me, too. I'm not going to bother trying to dig them up, but I was sure I'd read articles referencing the vet combine in Quinn's comeback effort. I guess it's possible he applied and was also rejected.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteFound it. Apparently it's a video, but I can't get it to play:
ReplyDeletehttp://sportsshow.denverpost.com/
Here is the House interview.
ReplyDeleteAFAIK this is the first broadcast interview House has done on Tebow. And it just so happens to take place on the same day that the combine roster comes out with Tim's name left off?
The timing on this is no accident. I am 100% certain Team Tebow made this happen on this day for a reason. The question is: what does it mean?
My best guess is that Tim applied and was not accepted, and this is his way of sending a message to counter the flood of Tebow-is-done articles that will hit Twitter later today.
It's so hard to get a read on what is happening. Every time one thinks they have it figured out it only gets stranger. All signs were pointing towards Tim doing the combine. If he applied & wasn't accepted someone should say so & then tell everyone why.
DeleteI am glad for the interview House gave & I agree the timing of it was no accident. I would like to see even more from him & others to speak out on Tims behalf.
I had reservations about the combine because I felt teams have known about his training for 2 years & had still not shown any interest & would turn a blind eye or a deaf ear no matter what he did.
Wouldn't it be just as effective to send teams film of Tim throwing with Tom House. Everyone knows what else he can do. It's not like he has been a player who slipped through the cracks & was missed. He is Tim Tebow after all.
I have a couple of questions:
ReplyDelete1) Since TT, Brady Quinn, & Vince Young were rejected, is it possible the NFL only accepted players that hadn't had enough playing time for teams to have sufficient film on them (I don't buy VY's 'applied late' statement)?
2) I saw on twitter that a 31 year old USC alum who's played in the NFL is taking part in USC's Pro Day. Is it possible Tim's continued training w/House after finding out he'd been rejected could be b/c he intends on attending UF's Pro Day on 4/7?
OK, after doing some research on the QB's selected for the veteran combine, here is the most important thing to know: of the 7 QB's selected, only one has ever thrown a pass in an NFL football game. Mike Kafka threw 16 passes for 107 yards in 2011. That's it. Everyone else has bounced around CFL, AFL, UFL (whatever the hell that is), and probably worked in a couple of car washes.
ReplyDeleteSo I think it's clear this is not a true Veteran combine, and probably not intended for players like Tim, BQ, VY, etc.
If that's the case then it's probably safe to assume (although with Tebow as we know too well it's not ever safe to assume anything ;). that Tebow & his people must have known ahead of time that this event was not for them. Then it's also safe to assume the reason for all the training would mean they are still trying to get back in & by sending Tom House out to give interviews they must think they have a reasonable chance of doing so.
DeleteHopefully Tom House & some other influential voices can continue to make Tim's case for him. If the idea of his mechanics being fixed takes hold one has to believe some team will have to take a look.
P.S. Although the Patriots do not need a QB they were the ones who sent Tim to Tom House & it would not surprise me if they wanted to take a closer look for themselves.
Once one door is opened it may lead to others.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
Nice research Ed. Three thoughts:
ReplyDelete1. It sure would be nice if the NFL stated/published the purpose of the NFL for its fans. If indeed, they have limited the scope of the participant's playing history to what has been listed, wouldn't it have been civil of them to post this somewhere, like on www.nfl.com?
2. WTH. If the NFL doesn't have a limited scope for the participants at this event, then, we can only assume the NFL is the source of Tebow's 'NFL blackballing'. Not sure what else we can conclude.
3. IM-WTH. Kafka, Johnson, Kay, Price, Robinson, Thomas, Wilson. Tyler 'frigin' Wilson? Tebow could run (and yes, pass) circles around these guys.
Jerrod Johnson (Texas A&M)
Mike Kafka (Northwestern)
Brendon Kay (Cincinnati)
Keith Price (Washington)
Zac Robinson (Oklahoma State)
Darron Thomas (Oregon)
Tyler Wilson (Arkansas)
*** Barring Tebow actually showing up and participating in this event or getting a tryout with another team(s), I can only conclude that Tebow has been BLACKBALLED from the NFL. I resisted this take for long enough. Not sure what other conclusion to make at this point. The kid wins ... end of story. ***
RonDog
I think blackballed is the wrong term. It implies a conspiracy or deliberate effort on the part of the League that's just way too tinfoil-hat-black-helicopter-wingnut to be credible. That Brady Quinn and Vince Young are also absent from the list all but confirms that the veteran combine is, strangely, not for veterans with a certain amount of playing time and film under their belts. Rather it's for players vaguely defined as 'overlooked'.
DeleteI think a better term to describe Tebow's situation would be 'ostracized.' There's an intangible, social element to it that has pervaded the League's attitude toward him. If you're a GM and you want your universe of owners, coaches, players, media, agents and so on to take you seriously, you don't give Tim Tebow a workout because "everybody knows" he's not an NFL QB. Repeat something long enough and it becomes the truth. If he's going to get a look this spring, it will be because a remarkable talent evaluator with a backbone, a sack, and limited options is at the point where he doesn't give a crap what Prisco has to say about it.
Short of that, if TT really wants to air out his new mechanics, he's going to have to go to the CFL because the NFL is poisoned. At this point I'm not convinced he's willing to do that. Should've done it last season, but woulda coulda shoulda.
"I think a better term to describe Tebow's situation would be 'ostracized.' There's an intangible, social element to it that has pervaded the League's attitude toward him. If you're a GM and you want your universe of owners, coaches, players, media, agents and so on to take you seriously, you don't give Tim Tebow a workout because "everybody knows" he's not an NFL QB. Repeat something long enough and it becomes the truth. If he's going to get a look this spring, it will be because a remarkable talent evaluator with a backbone, a sack, and limited options is at the point where he doesn't give a crap what Prisco has to say about it."
DeleteThat's *exactly* it. It's Emperor's New Clothes mentality at it's worst.
As for the CFL being the only place to demonstrate his new mechanics, what about UF Pro Day this year? I asked the following question above, but I guess people didn't see it. So I'll repost it:
I saw on twitter that a 31 year old USC alum who's played in the NFL is taking part in USC's Pro Day. Is it possible Tim's continued training w/House after finding out he'd been rejected could be b/c he intends on attending UF's Pro Day on 4/7?
^^ Pro Day is as likely or unlikely as anything else. Just don't know enough at this point to speculate. I would say, though, that Pro Day or any sort of combine-style event would give him limited opportunity in a controlled environment, which may not be enough to convince scouts with relatively hardened attitudes. I'm all for him taking whatever avenues he can, but it seems to me his best chance at regaining the League's interest is to demonstrate that his new mechanics are durable under the stress of live games. Alternative leagues would seem to be the only option for that at this point, provided even they still have interest in signing him.
DeleteAgree. I'm just still wondering why he continued working w/TH even after he knew he wasn't accepted & thought maybe UF Pro Day could be the reason.
DeleteIMO as I said in my commentary above, I believe he is still working with Tom House because he & his handlers believe he must have a reasonable chance of getting back in the NFL. They had to have known ahead of time that the combine was not intended for players like Tim.
DeleteHaving Tom House come out for Tim was no accident. I hope we see more interviews like these so the idea of Tim's mechanics being fixed begins to take hold in peoples minds. Then maybe a team will be willing to take a look. IMO
On Mike & Mike this morning they mentioned this.
Is anyone else having trouble accessing the Tom House interview that Ed linked to above? Yesterday after the commercial aired, I simply got a message that the vid couldn't be played on my system (I'm using my old computer), but today it's skipping to another video after the commercial. And when I searched for it on the site, I couldn't find it.
Delete>>IMO as I said in my commentary above, I believe he is still working with Tom House because he & his handlers believe he must have a reasonable chance of getting back in the NFL.<<
DeleteWe thought the same thing last year. Everything that's happening now is a carbon copy of preseason 2014. Sorry but I don't have much faith in his handlers after watching them handle him straight into a Disney Parade hosting gig last season. And if all they can think of this season is to send Tom House out on interviews to vouch for his mechanics then frankly we may as well hang it up.
Hi Brooke. Try this link:
Deletehttp://sportsshow.denverpost.com/2015/03/11/tom-house-on-helping-tim-tebow-work-on-his-mechanics/
>>On a side note: Does anyone get the reasoning behind what Chip Kelly has been doing?<<
ReplyDeleteNo one but Kelly has the remotest clue. He's basically blowing his roster to Kingdom Come. The latest transaction rumor has him trying to trade Mathis away. Some believe its an elaborate effort to trade up and make room for Mariota, which I personally believe would be idiotic. Another more plausible theory is that he's lost his mind.
I heard this morning that Tim did not apply for the combine: IMO this bolsters the theory that he knew ahead of time that the combine was not for players like him.
ReplyDeleteThey must have a plan of choice they are working on. Whether it works or not remains to be seen.
Could be a big mistake. NFL signaling through press that he's welcome to apply, even now after application deadline. He'd probably look amazing against those other guys.
DeleteAll we do here is hold out hope that he's got some secret strategy to return, often justified by his actions (training patterns) and statements (or lack thereof). I'm certainly not above this wishful thinking and will continue to speculate along with the rest of you, but realistically - objectively - speaking, it looks like he's calling it a day.
Based on what we know & not on what we don't know. I am inclinded to agree it may be a big mistake, the NFL seems to welcome his application & he would look amazing against those other guys.
DeleteI just can't bring myself to think he is calling it a day. Unless he says so. It runs contrary to everything he has ever said & stood for. It doesn't make any sense to train the way he does & put out press releases saying he wants back in.
The saga continues.
"it looks like he's calling it a day."
DeleteThen why did he suddenly start training w/House again? I'm not automatically buying these reports today that say Tim didn't apply, but that the NFL would still welcome him at the combine. They're coming from the NFL, who have been known to lie-especially in the Ray Rice case. By saying Tim didn't apply, it takes off the heat they've been feeling the past couple of days. It's possible he didn't apply, but then-again-why start training w/House again? If he didn't apply, then he has something else up his sleeve. All I can think of is he's planning on taking part in the UF Pro Day or he's planning on trying the CFL or some other alternative league.
Probably the same reason he trained with House last season, when the vet combine wasn't part of the picture. Most likely he's got Sexton and co trying to cultivate private workouts; and he's spent the last month-ish working out with House to get back up to form...just in case.
DeleteTraining with House is no definitive indication that he applied to the combine. Further there is a source telling an NFL reporter that Tim did not apply. That source is either someone close to Tim or someone from within the NFL. If the former, the report is indisputable; if the latter,there's no basis for accusing the NFL of obfuscation and lying. Why lie that Tim did not apply if he could expose that lie with a single tweet or statement? Why if he wasn't welcome there would they open up the possibility by suggesting to the reporter that he could still apply? If they felt heat from the public wouldn't it make more sense--instead of lying that he didn't apply and issuing a disingenuous overture inviting him to do so--to simply explain that his prior experience and playing time ruled him out just like with Brady Quinn and Vince Young? That's a far easier, straightforward, and consistent resolution than dicking around with doublespeak. IMO, he did not apply, not because he couldn't get in if he really wanted to, but because he felt he had better options. As Bob observed, whether those options work or not remain to be seen.
And yes, based on the present landscape of *facts* as we understand them, it looks like he's calling it a day. If the facts change, so will the conclusion.
When it comes to reading the tea leaves on Tim's intentions, IMO the most significant recent data point is the House interview.
DeleteAFAIK this is the first time that House has been interviewed publicly about working with Tim. This was not just a brief comment in a more general interview. The interview was lengthy, and it was solely about Tim. And it happened on the day that the combine list came out without Tim's name on it.
IMO there is zero chance that the House interview was accidental, or that the timing was coincidence. This was 100% intentional PR by Team Tebow to counteract the negative impact of his name not being on the combine list. I am even more certain of that now that we know he did not apply, since it means his absence from the list was not a surprise to him.
I'll leave it to each of you to infer what his intentions could be to finally send Tom House out in public to say he is still working hard and has improved greatly.
All. Hey, I've had a couple of exchanges on Twitter that may be something to keep an eye on (see links and summaries below).
ReplyDelete>> https://twitter.com/RonDogCO/status/576421218305208320
I have zero G2 to indicate this individual (John R. Strayer) has any special access or knowledge of the Eagles' plans wrt a Tebow workout; but, he is claiming that Tebow has a workout on Monday with the Eagles. This would explain the work with House over the last month.
>> https://twitter.com/RonDogCO/status/576423808145309697
With Chip's trade for Bradford, there are rumblings that one of two things will happen with Bradford ...
1. Cut Bradford and free up $12.9M in cap room immediately. I doubt they will do this; but, you never know.
2. Rework Bradford's contract to reduce the cap hit in 2015 & 2016.
Either way, I'm sure Chip and the Eagles are concerned about Bradford's fragility. Tebow would be a great addition either as insurance or to compete for the starting job in Chip's 'spread-option offense'.
I've taken two steps back off the ledge (ie. my Blackballing comment above after the NFL Vet Combine news ... :-) ).
Regards, Ron.
I'll believe this when it happens. I bet part of DeMarco Murray's reason for signing for Philly (aside from the nice guaranteed contract he got) was the chance to play with Bradford again.
DeleteThat's a great point. I did read that Bradford was lobbying him hard. But, ultimately, I bet it was the guaranteed money he received and the chip on his shoulder from the Cowboys not opening up their bank account for him. He did after all go to their most hated rival. :-)
DeleteAlso, from a production standpoint, Murray would love to play with Tebow in the read option. With Tebow as a credible running threat (as opposed to Sanchez or Bradford), I would project that Murray would rack up 1,700+ yards. If you remember, Willis McGahee, was one season away from retirement and he put up 1,200 yards with Tebow under center (this included numerous missed snaps with him nursing a sore hamstring all year). McGahee did (671, 544, 380 yds before) & (731 & 377 yds after) the season with Tebow. Lance Ball & Knowshon Moreno added an additional 600 yards with Tebow under center.
Anyway, I could see this happening. But, like everything in the NFL involving Tebow, there are personalities, conventional thinking and a lack of risk taking across the board ... EXCEPT in Philly with Chip Kelly. Rick Taking and unconventional, independent thinking is his trademark. :-) We'll see. Ron
Ditto. Some random dude from Philly comes across a grenade like that yet Schefter and Rappoport are completely oblivious? It leaked just to this guy? Either someone's pulling his chain or he's having some fun at others' expense.
DeleteAs I said on Twitter, all Tebow rumors are trolls until proven otherwise. I have myself been burned numerous times by spoof accounts. Watch out for @Rrapsheet and @AdamScheftler :)
DeleteChip Kelly continues to be intriguing, mainly because he shows he does not give a flying crap what anyone thinks of him and he's not afraid to stick his thumb in the eye of conventional wisdom. Also he owns personnel decisions, which means he does not have to answer to some faceless GM.
But they just re-signed Sanchez to a fairly substantial contract, and I just can't see anyone in their right mind mixing that pair again. Add in the Bradford trade and it just doesn't look plausible. Neither Sanchez nor Bradford are known for mobility, so it does not look like they are going for a running QB offense. So unless Kelly wants to maintain two offensive systems and force defenses to prepare for both (which would be damned brilliant and gutsy), I just don't see Tebow going there.
Boy would I love to be wrong, though.
ED: It's funny that you mention the two system offense as being (brilliant & gutsy) that would definetely turn convetional offensive thinking on it's Derriere. They had a chance to implement that in Denver but rather than embrace the concept Elway used it as an excuse to dump Tebow.
DeleteAlso how would you rate the possibility that the Patriots may again take a look at Tim?? I know they are grooming a successor to Brady but Tim is still young & like you say he adds another dimension that the other quarterbacks do not. Maybe they could still continue to develop Garrapolo & in the meantime install some plays for Tim that have practical use & not just use up a roster spot
Very interested in your thoughts on this!
I don't see it as a possibility, unless the league increases the roster from 53 to 55, as is being discussed. Then just maybe. By all accounts his retention in 2013 came down to 1 or 2 roster spots.
DeleteWow. Spent the day in meetings on the road yesterday and missed all the fun in Philly.
DeleteEd, agree this is a 'pretty darn awesome' development in Tebow's effort to get back on a NFL football squad.
WRT the guy in Philly (@johnrstrayer) who predicted the Monday workout back on March 10th, he's earned some credibility with his prediction a week in advance. Now, whether his 'source' is still in an inside position, TBd. But, It's actually nice to see 1 in a million Twitter rumors revealed as accurate. :-)
John R. Strayer @johnrstrayer · Mar 10
@The700Level @SportsRadioWIP hearing Tim Tebow to work out for #Eagles next week
I never would have expected the Eagles to sign Tebow to a contract on Monday with so many loose ends to clean up at QB on their Roster: try to get something for Barkley, investigate trade(s) for Sanchez, consider reworked Bradford contract and/or trade.
But, I completely agree that the odds of Tebow in the NFL for 2015 have been bumped in a positive direction ... Finally.
Ron
Parse from this what you will:
ReplyDeletehttp://jacksonville.com/sports/college/florida-gators/2015-03-13/story/tim-tebow-i-love-play-ball#gsc.tab=0
Thanks for the link Kathryn. I thought it was interesting that Cam Newton was playing in this year's event. I didn't know Cam and Tim were still close after the dust up at the U. Truth be told, I've never thought about it.
DeleteNot going to try and analyze some of the Tebow quotes in the article. Again, thanks for the link. Ron
As we all know it's never an easy proposition reading the tea leaves regarding Tebow. We have all had our share of surprises & disapointments on a story that has taken on more twists & turns than a Stephen King novel.
ReplyDeleteNow that we clearly know Tim wants back in & thinks he will get one last chance either by combine or by a precombine signing. I thought it might be fun to speculate which team may be willing to give him this chance.
Will it be a team that clearly needs a quarterback & a turnaround in their fortunes or a team that has an entrenched starter. Everyone's guess is as good as mine but here is my two cents.
Buffalo: No way
Philly: Probably not, everyone seems to think Tim would be great in a Chip Kelly offense, except Chip Kelly.
Miami: Doubtful
New England: Doubtful but not ready to totally write them off. Tebowmania not a consideration & has allies on the staff. Team needs & circumstances may have changed since the last go around.
Jets: 50/50 New staff has been bold & creative.
Baltimore: No need
Cincy: Doubtful but who knows
Pittsburgh: Ben has a new deal but I wouldn't mind seeing Tim as a backup here.
Houston: Doubtful but should
Indy: No need
Jax: Caldwell, enough said.
Tenn: Would they be bold enough?
Denver: Probably not but a chance for redemption.
KC: Probably not but who knows
Raiders: Probably not but he did beat Christian Ponder.
Chargers: Rivers & Tebow on the same team would be an ideal dual threat offense.
Dallas: Probaby not but who knows.
Giants: Probably not but if Tim & Eli can take swings in the batting cage together maybe they could be on the same team.
Arizona: They blew a golden opportunity last year
Rams: Ditto
49rs: Total overhaul so who knows
Seattle: Perfect fit but doubtful
Cleveland: What are they waiting for????
Washington: Ditto
Chicago: 50/50
Detroit: No need
Green Bay: No need but a possibility
Minn: No need
Atl: No need
Carolina: No need
Saints: 50/50
Tampa Bay: Would they be bold enough???
The list above is intended for fun purposes only. Hopefully we will get some good news soon.
There are only 2 paths back into the NFL: 1) as an understudy to an older HOF QB, or 2) as a starter. That's it. 2 QB systems, traditional backup roles, rosters with young or shaky starting QBs, etc. are just wishful thinking. So throw out Seattle, Washington, KC and a whole bunch of other teams.
ReplyDeleteFor teams that are QB-needy, the commitment to TT extends beyond the player. A team would also be committing to tailoring the roster and offensive scheme to fit TT's strengths (as a team would with any other QB that it installs as a starter).
That's not to say a team shouldn't pursue that route, it just needs to be understood that signing him is not a 2-dimensional issue from an operational and strategic sense. Also, if he is being looked at as a starter, he would need to be signed within the next few weeks to get a full OTA program this offseason.
Outside of the two possibilities mentioned, lobbying for TT in any other situation can be detrimental as it draws focus away from situations where signing TT would be logical. In fact, part of the 'fatigue' associated with TT has to do with his name coming up in seemingly every conceivable roster scenario. Pick your battles.
That has always been my view, but I'm not sure I hold it anymore. Tim has spent the last 2 years remaking his throwing motion so he can function in a regular offense, as a backup or a starter. If he can credibly demonstrate that he has developed the skillset to run a normal offense, then his intangibles and mobility become huge bonuses instead of the primary reason to grab him.
DeleteI think there are a lot of teams this year that really aren't sure what they are going to do at QB. Cleveland and Philly are good examples. I think we will see more teams than usual bring in 3 or 4 credible starters and have a genuine competition.
The drawback with Tim has always been the need to tailor the offense to him, more so than for most other QBs. That also renders him unacceptable as a backup in most instances. If his work with Tom House has removed that impediment, he becomes a much more viable option, possibly even a bargain for some sharp coach.
I totally agree with this revised view of how Tim might be viewed. If these rumors about him working out for the Eagles are true, Chip Kelly deserves alot of respect for reversing his position on Tim & being the first to break the mold.
DeleteUnfortunately mechanics won't improve his chances to sign and stick as a backup. He is a learn-by-doing person (dyslexia contributes to that) and backups don't get many reps. If he backs up a HOF QB then there is less pressure to learn and adapt to an offense quickly - he could develop over a few seasons and then be ready when the older QB retires or is released/traded.
ReplyDeleteFrankly the focus on mechanics in the media was always overblown. Not having an opportunity to immerse himself in a system, through OTAs, training camps, in-season reps, etc. killed him in live action situations. He never graduated from memorizing his own plays to just concentrating on how the defense reacts. The mental aspect of the position is often overlooked.
For PR and locker room reasons muddled QB situations won't work. The circus is minimized if a team brings him in and says "he's our guy." Otherwise you get flashbacks to the Orton/TT days that were not good for anyone.
Philly gave up a 2nd rounder for Bradford, so unless they flip him soon he's their guy (with the Sanchize backing him up). TN (assuming it doesn't like the QBs in the draft), TB (assuming it doesn't like the QBs in the draft), STL (Foles is not good) and BUF (yes, BUF) would be his best bets. If the Bears deal Cutler before his 2016 salary is guaranteed then that would be a possibility, but the GM there said they're moving forward with him. TN would be interesting if they trade out of the pick or take the stud DT. TT is popular in Nashville.
The mental aspect and mechanics were related. Each played on the other. If just one or the other was the problem, then teams would have worked around it. But overcoming both was too much.
DeleteWe Tebow fans like to dismiss the accuracy thing as something the haters made up. But if you followed his practice performances at NYJ and NE it was clear he had issues. Plenty of reporters started out really excited to cover him, then about halfway through training camp changed their tune to "geez, that guy throws a lot of errant balls."
Read comments from NFL coaches about what they want in a QB, and accuracy is the single common thread. No coach is going to rely on a guy who says "oops, sorry" every 5th or 6th pass.
House says he is throwing very well. If that tempts someone to take a look, then the whole equation could change from the past two years. I have a ton of respect for Tim for being willing to remake himself.
I've spent so much time speculating on teams that might be interested over the past 2 years that I'm just not ready to go down that road again. I"m just going to sit tight and see what develops. I will say, however, that there is no way that the Eagles are banking everything on their starter being a guy who is coming off his second ACL surgery and cannot even run right now.
There is no doubt that Tim had drawbacks with his throwing that held him back the first time around. What was so frustrating for me was that even with these drawbacks he was still able to produce & win games when alot of quarterbacks who threw better could not.
DeleteThen having to deal with the indignities in NY & subsequently it seemed like there was an effort to marginalize him.
He deserves a ton of respect for remaking himself & now has an opportunity to demonstrate what true character, perseverance & determination are all about.
Hopefully it will not go unnoticed.
Fair points - the two are interrelated. Eagles are only in play if Chip flips Bradford and Sanchez, and does not draft a QB in round 1 (Mariota). No team will sign TT as a backup after it has invested in a young QB as it would threaten to undermine (through no fault of TT) the QB's support internally and externally. It would be a shrewd move to trade Bradford and Sanchez for assets, wipe a lot of $$$ of the books, and then sign TT to a low dollar contract. It would give the Eagles the same degree of roster flexibility that the Seahawks presently enjoy. They would have to do it soon, though.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeletePretty darn awesome, right? Even if not signed, things are 1000% more positive than they were a few days ago.
DeleteEveryone should read this interview with Tom House.
Today's developments were a huge relief. Although nothing was signed the dark cloud of uncertainty was lifted for now. The House article & the other articles by Dadeaux are very encouraging. Their professionalism really stood out when you compare it to the usual know nothing talking heads.
DeleteI gained a ton of respect for Chip Kelly he is a leader & whether he signs Tim or not he wants to win.
Here's a nice interview with Derek Carr about Tebow to the Eagles:
Deletehttp://www.120sports.com/video/v113047754/david-carr-on-tim-tebow
Thanks for sharing Ron Dog;
DeleteClassy interview from David Carr he definetely gets it. I wonder if chip could use a quarterback coach ;).
One last thought from yesterday: I thought it was great that the same pundits who didn't even have any idea that Tim was in Philly for a workout or how the workout went, all of a sudden immediately knew why Chip brought him there.
Bob, continuing off your observation: if it wasn't clear before it's clear now that the media was absolutely asleep at the wheel on this. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever that a *plumbing equipment salesman* should have a better inside track on the inner machinations of the Eagles' Free Agency moves than the guys who are paid to cultivate and tap their sources; but he did. It just goes to show you that these reporters let their preconceived ideas about TT's NFL prospects influence their efforts in smelling out and digging up leads related to any potential signings. That guy spent last week tweeting to reporters that TT was going to work out with the Eagles on Monday. He got the player right, he got the club right, he got the day right. I can understand that they would be reticent to follow up on internet tips, but that this workout came as a surprise to them when laymen paying even remote attention started connecting the dots on Sunday night is just embarrassing.
DeleteFlorio and crew are coming around ... amazing.
Deletehttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/17/report-if-eagles-can-trade-barkley-theyll-likely-sign-tebow/
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/17/tom-house-declares-tim-tebow-ready-to-play/
Colorful commentary.
ReplyDeleteNot that I necessarily disagree with the sentiment behind it, but IMO it's important to exercise some perspective. First, these guys may be geniuses in their own minds, but notwithstanding a few exceptional cases we're not talking about a corps of discerning intellects. For the most part these guys stick their fingers in the wind and follow the crowd because, as they have repeatedly demonstrated on this and other issues, they haven't the savvy to formulate or defend an argument around independent thought. We are talking about people that are so out of their depth in this particular debate that, when pressed with uncomfortable facts, they resort to railroading it with circular logic and other cheap fallacies ("If he's so good then how come 32 teams agree with me?"). Let's be clear, there is absolutely no point in wasting any time attempting to earnestly reason with individuals that so disingenuously engage in such intellectually bankrupt rhetoric. It's not only an unnecessary and unproductive exercise, but in my mind prohibitively boring. What possible satisfaction could be gleaned by engaging in an argument with a mental midget? At best you walk away having had the last word against a dumbass. Not exactly an accomplishment. At worst you're wasting your time and throwing fuel on an out-of-control bonfire that's only burning Tim.
Second, these reporters are where they are because they are sports fanatics, and as such they harbor a ton of biases. As Ed likes to say, this is all just a soap opera for men. And these reporters are part of the cast of characters. Those under the impression that they are actual journalists only believe that because they are not smart enough (see the first point above) to recognize and self-audit the personal feelings that influence their analyses. Add enormous ego to that equation and you wind up with scenarios such as the one we are watching develop this week, wherein all the reporters who never saw this coming (i.e. literally all of them) are now trying to suggest that they have any sort of insight or authority over what's going to happen next. Who the hell cares if some columnist or blogger with a boatload of Twitter followers "doesn't expect" Tebow to get signed by the Eagles? Every jackass with a byline out there wrote his career off and didn't expect him to get a workout in the first place, but *now* their words are supposed to carry weight? Please.
My whole point is don't get all worked up and upset over these guys and their act. It may look on the surface as though they have some sort of influence on the outcome of this issue, but they don't. They really don't. All they have, individually, are a set of press credentials and a self-selected audience of impressionable ass-kissers that like to hang with the schoolyard bully. Big deal.
Oh, Kathryn, I agree with your wholeheartedly. Just it seems that I lose my cool every once a year where the vitriol gets really out of hand and with those predictable few that really take themselves too seriously. I'm glad that I have some reporters in my TL that have really shown an admirable act of self restraint or they just feel like it's not that big of a deal to over react that a "former" player gets a workout for the team that is really tailored for him to run the offense.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone has any leads on video of the workout, that would be great. Keep your eyes open, inform us in the dark!
And also, to the point why wasn't he signed right away. Would you sign a certain roster guy in TT if you're trying to trade your third string? I wouldn't. I would show my card with that and I would know that everyone knows I will straight up release Barkley.
A lot of these guys took PE instead of critical reasoning. Same goes for their readers.
ReplyDeleteThis time last week we were devastated because couldn't even get into the combine. Now we are talking about his workout and whether he gets signed. W
What a difference a week makes. Be happy, faithful Tebow fans. You earned it.
A lot of these guys took PE instead of critical reasoning. Same goes for their readers.
ReplyDeleteThis time last week we were devastated because couldn't even get into the combine. Now we are talking about his workout and whether he gets signed. W
What a difference a week makes. Be happy, faithful Tebow fans. You earned it.
Here is a great example tweet to remind us who we are dealing with.
ReplyDelete"He is an awful QB. I guess the Great D and Taylor made offensive game plans didn't help at all."
I was puzzled for a moment, because I could not recall a coach Taylor on the Broncos. :-)
Here is a great example tweet to remind us who we are dealing with.
ReplyDelete"He is an awful QB. I guess the Great D and Taylor made offensive game plans didn't help at all."
I was puzzled for a moment, because I could not recall a coach Taylor on the Broncos. :-)
The kind of PR offensive we are getting from Team Tebow which includes all the House, Dedauex interviews etc. is something I have been wanting to see since last season, which I mentioned in some of my commentaries from that time.
ReplyDeleteI was a little puzzled when it did not happen last season but I am sure they must have had very good reasons.
All the attention about Tim's new throwing motion is beginning to have a positive effect & beginning to take hold in peoples conciousness. There are stories beginnning to come forth from reporters who were once critical & now are beginning to slowly understand what we have been talking about for the last 2 years. The Albert Breer piece being an excellent example.
If the league at large does become accepting to signing Tim, of course I would like to see him play anywhere but I would like to see him either in New England or Philly because of the respectful way they treated him while the rest of the league looked the other way.
If he makes it back & signs with Philly Chip Kelly would have just staged the greatest coup in football history.
Agree the tide is turning some with Breer leading the way. Listen to this interview with Rich Eisen today.
ReplyDeletehttp://now.nfl.com/play/db77595c-8663-42cf-9ac3-db68141e9bed
Hm. Not to sound too negative, but I didn't get the sense there was said anything in favor of Tim. Just that he worked hard the last couple of years. We knew that before him. It seems like the media is catching up on what TT has been doing last two years. As if they thought he only played catch with his brother in between his broadcasting gigs. Sheeeesh.
DeleteIt neither brimmed with enthusiasm nor negativity. Breer gave a fair assessment of the landscape moving forward and Eisen refrained from engaging in jackassery, which is the most positive reaction we're ever gonna get out of him.
DeleteI'm with Kathryn. Treating Tim like any other player is the best we are going to get. And that is enough. Once teams see they can look at Tim without catching ESPN and TMZ sorting through their trashcans at night, they will feel more comfortable kicking the tires and evaluating him on his merits.
DeletePlus, Breer did express undisguised admiration for Tim's hard work and determination. If that narrative takes hold, Tim's presence goes back to being a net positive.
I don't know how much sway media opinions have in the NFL. I suspect very little on substantive decisions. You win the Super Bowl by trusting the stopwatch and game film, not Albert Breer. HOWEVER, every OC wants to become an HC, and every VP of Player Personnel wants to become a GM. Those chances are earned largely through reputation, and media regard is a factor in building reputation. Taking away the reputation risk will make underlings more willing to touch the live wire that is Tebow.
I agree with both of your takes. Cheerleaders are on the sidelines, all we are looking for from the media is a fair assesment. Which is what he gave. What did you all make of Breer's comments concerning the workout??? That it "by all indications went ok" & that "if it had been eye popping they would have signed Tim already" they don't need to trade Barkley. I am trying as best I can to keep my thoughts neutral & just letting things develop but it's hard not to speculate.
DeleteAB's analysis of the tea leaves isn't absurd or illogical; again, he's drawn some fair conclusions. That said, it's his job to draw conclusions and his best bet is to take a conservative view rather than predict a quixotic scenario that may not materialize. What is clear is that he's got little to no more inside knowledge on the situation than any one of us, so take his respectable opinion for what it is. IMO he's been fair and objective; and the only place I would ask him to expand on at this point is the Barkley factor. His points in that regard were all valid; and there had long been talk of putting Barkley in the yard sale pile, but it's hard to dismiss the fact that the Eagles went public with their intentions to dump him within an hour of Tim's workout.
DeleteThanks Kathryn: That helped affirm & put it in perspective for me.
DeleteI have a theory as to what Kelly & the Eagles may have in mind & what their short & long range plans might be but I am going to keep them to myself for now while we see how all this unfolds.
Just for the record I don't think Tim has gotten enough credit for resisting the calls for him to play fullback or tight end. I never bought into those ideas.
I think the Eagles source was quoted as saying the workout was "fine". That's great IMO. It's too much to expect "holy crap, he's the greatest passer ever!". Previously, Tim did not throw "fine" in the eyes of the league. With his athleticism and intangibles, were he just an average passer he would be on a team. If Tom House made him an average passer, that's good enough.
DeleteI think the House comments were very insightful, especially his emphasis on "spin". That was one of Tim's big downfalls. He may throw 6 or 8 solid passes, but 1 or 2 out of every 10 was a wounded duck. If he could not control that issue, it is no wonder that coaches were not willing to put their faith in him to execute their fancy offensive systems. It would be kind of like a pro golfer who hit some brilliant shots, but sliced every 6th tee shot into the woods.
Kathryn found this instagram video of Tim working out today. I think it may be the only footage of Tim throwing in the wild since Dilfer. Looking at the way they filmed and edited the action, it looks like they were trying to avoid showing Tim. However, you can see him throwing the 4th pass.
I think he looks damn good. He holds the ball high, gets it out fairly quick, and there is no evidence of that ugly hitch he used to have. Now he needs to do it under fire.
Kathryn also pointed out that one of the receivers, Austin Pettis, is an actual NFL receiver who is currently on a team (the Chargers). That is all kinds of awesome. If he really is throwing better, word will get around. Receivers know what a good ball looks like, and they have credibility because they put their bodies on the line to catch passes. Players talk to coaches.
As hard as it is, we just need to be patient and give him and Sexton time to work it. This thing is headed in the right direction, and something good is going to break sooner or later.
The throwing definetly looks alot better those balls had some zip on them when the ball hit the recievers hands you could hear the pop. Do you still think he will do the combine?? I don't think he will.
ReplyDeleteI do not think he will be at the combine.
DeleteHere is a link to an article that came out today written by Brady Quinn about Tim. I read it with one eye open & one closed because of their competitive history. Some points were valid others were a bit of a stretch. Especially that he called the Bronco 2011 defense dominant, I guess he was watching a different defense than I was ;).
Deletelink is: www.footballbyfootball.com/column/the-curious-case-of-tim-tebow
Hi Bob. I came here to post the link also after starting the read. I'll finish it later tonight when I get home from work. I'll laugh out loud also when I read that 'dominant defense' line. I watched every snap that year here in Denver and dominant isn't a word I'd use. Situationally aware might be a better one.
DeleteAnyway, I'm hoping I get some 'honest insight' from old Mr. Quinn in the article, we'll see.
Actually the exact words he used were "top ranked" sorry. Let us know what you think of the article.
DeleteThat article was seriously passive aggressive. Quinn did the same crap in the interview for Mike Silver's article.
DeleteThat article was seriously passive aggressive. Quinn did the same crap in the interview for Mike Silver's article.
DeleteEd. I agree with your characterization ... passive aggressive.
ReplyDeleteBob. Thanks for the link.
I just watched the two clips Brady referenced and in both cases; I suspected they were the plays I remembered in my mind's eye. Brady's analysis of what Tim should have done in those plays comes from a traditional NFL mentality. In both of those plays, I'm 100% certain Tebow knew exactly what he was going to do before the snap of the ball.
1) In the Miami game, the Bronco's needed a 2-point conversion to tie the game in regulation. There isn't a chance Tebow was going to alert to a pass when he knew he could win the game with the same off-tackle trap play he has run his entire life. Now, a typical NFL QB like Quinn would 'alert to a pass' because the option of running off-tackle isn't part of his repertoire. According to this article (http://dailydolphin.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2011/10/25/why-were-the-miami-dolphins-in-a-nickel-defense-on-tim-tebows-2-point-conversion), the Dolphins had their 'lighter' linemen, linebackers & cornerback in the game. Tebow was a skilled 230 lb running QB, he's not going to pass in that situation; he's going to win the game with an off-tackle keeper.
VIDEO: https://youtu.be/789qT6cfb6k?t=9m7s
2) In the Jets' game, I specifically remember the Jets' Smith taking too steep an angle and Tebow noticeably glancing over at Smith on the left side. Yes, Brady Quinn, you and any other traditional QB would have 'alerted to pass' because you knew you couldn't turn the corner past the outside edge of the contain man. Tebow literally baited Smith into rushing when he faked a drop-back and then took him to school.
VIDEO: https://youtu.be/ewAk196S6R8
I can only assume Brady Quinn and others in the NFL still don't get it ... Tebow is unconventional by traditional NFL standards. Hey, does Tebow need to improve his accuracy, decision making, release time, etc. Sure. Hopefully with House, Tim has knocked down a number of tall poles the NFL brass perceive as show-stoppers.
Articles like this only reinforce my opinion that it will take an unconventional Head Coach & Front Office to see the value in Tebow on an NFL franchise. Chip Kelly is that guy. Pete Carroll is also that guy, he just happens to already have an unconventional, creative QB on his roster.
*** As an aside, I've been thinking about ESPN sending Tebow to Oregon for 2 days to spend time with and interview Mariota for the National Championship Game this year. I suspect Chip Kelly sees that these two (Tebow & Mariota) could co-exist on a Chip Kelly roster and complement each other's strengths without petty jealousy getting in the way. At least much less than other QB Ego's out there ... Sanchez, etc. If Chip does maneuver to draft Mariota, I think this further strengthens the case for Tebow on the Eagles. If Chip can't get Mariota, Tebow is a great alternative to lead his power running spread offense for the NFL. ***
Sorry for the length, but, wanted to get a couple of points out there. RonDog.
Ron Dog: I couldn't have said it all bellter myself. I think you nailed it.
DeleteAlot of the conventional playcallers like Quinn may have called the right play by conventional standards & then failed in it's execution. I would rather have Tim & his unconventional ways than Quinn & many others.
I hope when Tim does return he is able to blend what he has learned over the past two years, with the creativity & instinct he used to play with. If he can do this there is no telling what he will be able to accomplish.
Listen to this quote from Trent Dilfer who spent the day today watching Tim throw: "He looked great all he needs is a shot & he will thrive".
One would have to assume the Eagles saw the same thing. Like Ed said previously the word will get around. Lets keep the faith!
Bob. I agree with your comment about Tim blending recent accuracy with creativity / instinct. You hear some coaches and ex-coaches talk about how great it is to have a QB who can extend plays when they aren't talking about Tebow. You also hear some defensive coaches talk about how hard it is to cover when the play is extended by the QB.
ReplyDeleteAs you say, the key will be for Tebow to be selective / intentional in how he uses his running ability. I feel Tebow has the potential to offer a game similar to Russel Wilson, but with a slightly more aggressive and frequent running style. With Chip asking his offense to run the Read Option on EVERY play they run, Tebow's running threat could have defenses completely off kilter.
Also, we just said goodbye to friends visiting and I've missed Dilfer's latest comments. I'll try to find them.
Keeping the faith. RonDog
The Brady Quinn article really has me hot under the collar. So much so that I violated my own rule about becoming THAT GUY, the crazy Tebow fan. But people were kissing his rear end for what clearly was a hostile article masked with a veneer of goodwill, and it just irritated me.
ReplyDeleteUltimately he has shot himself in the foot. His reputation is now sealed, and any teammate, past or future, knows he's going to have to look over his shoulder to make sure BQ isn't in the proverbial room. Not a good look for the de facto captain of the team.
DeleteSomehow I suspect his reputation was sealed some time before this.
DeleteBrady violates my 30 second rule for men. Never trust a man who looks like he spends more than 30 seconds on his hair in the morning.
Any player personell person that paid any mind to the Quinn article would deserve to have him & his career TD to INT ratio as his quarterback. He obviously needs the combine his lack of prodution speaks for itself. Right play call or not.
ReplyDeleteTebow on the other hand IMO & his own, does not need the combine to prove his wares. Tom House, Trent Dilfer & a Eagle workout is enough for me & him.
Tim throwing with Brees encourages me as much as anything. I've never been there so I don't know for sure, but I gotta guess the NFL is a big frat and people talk. If Tm is throwing with Brees, and looks good, word is going to get around. Someone is going to smell a bargain and grab him. As I have said numerous times before, at the end of the day the league is ruled by self interest, and if a coach or GM thinks they can steal a leg up on the other teams then they will sell their own mother to do so.
DeleteYea that's an excellent point about Brees, I forgot that one. There is alot of angst today among Tebow fans that he is not at the combine. I would venture to guess that quarterback being such a high profile position is not necessarily what the scouts at the combine are looking for. Quarterbacks are hard to overlook. I think he has been doing the right things recently with his training the word definetly is getting around.
DeleteAs an aside: I loved the pictures of him with Manny Pacquiao.
Once upon a time I was all worked up about the Combine, but events of the last week cured me of that, and I was confident he would not be there today.
DeleteHis team is engaging in a deliberate campaign to change the narrative about him, and I think they are succeeding.
There are two parts of the narrative that have to be changed. The first is the obvious "Tebow can't throw" crap. The second, less obvious, is the "circus" reputation. They have to get people comfortable with the notion that Tebow can exist as a backup without causing a huge disruption.
One great thing about the Eagles tryout: even if they don't sign him, it shows other teams they can work him out without the world imploding. Yeah there will be some extra twitter posts, and maybe a few dozen reporters will bug their PR department for a day or two, but it's really no big deal.
As hard as it is, we have to be patient. This may take some time.
Ron Dog retweeted something today that is worth mentioning. Jason Cole is one of those smart asses that used to chip at Tebow any chance they got, and he sad this today: https://soundcloud.com/bleacherreportradio/jason-cole-says-tim-tebow-a-valuable-commodity-to-chip-kellys-eagles-as-practice-qb
DeleteAnd, Ed, you should not feel anything bad about your comment. That was a valid one and you did not cross the mentioned line.
DeleteJason Cole reminds me of Crazy Ira and the Douche from "Parks and Recreation".
DeleteI agree with everything you said; believe it or not I believe the seeds for the changing narritve about him were set with the SEC television gig. People got to see him on TV regularly & got comfortable with him. It dispeled alot of the negative things that were said & written about him.
ReplyDeletePete Carroll had some very candid remarks today about the last minute Super Bowl play. His remarks were on pro football talk.
ReplyDeleteHe says it is "something that will never go away" & that Russell Wilson was devestated but that it was not necessarily a bad thing they can use it for motivation.
I didn't think it was a bad play call, they had momentum from the previous play & they tried to quick strike. More often than not that play would have succeded. The Pats & Malcolm Butler just had a better answer.
What do you all think?
Hey all.
ReplyDeleteSo, there are a couple of threads in play that seem to point to another possible landing spot for Tebow. There is a strong rumor that Coach Ken Whisenhunt will trade the Titans' 2nd overall pick to the chargers for Philip Rivers (He knows him well).
The Chargers would select Mariota at #2 as their potential franchise QB. I could see McCoy bringing in Tebow as a QB2 to run a similar Spread/Read Option offense to what they would undoubtedly customize for Mariota.
This is a long shot and I'd personally like to see Tebow with the Eagles over the Chargers; but, could see this going down. Also, Tebow would probably play sooner with the Eagles with Bradshaw so fragile and Sanchez's eminent folding act with the pressure on him.
RonDog
Ed, Bob, Kathryn, Brooke, Luz ...
ReplyDeleteAwful quiet out there. But, I'm choosing to believe that if a team had designs on Tebow, they would not tip their hand before all the remaining decent free agent WR/TE's (ie. Miles Austin) can be scooped up, the actual NFL draft and then the UDFA's are culled following the draft. A team may have Tebow as part of their plans; but, as we know during these off-seasons, plans change with so many pieces in motion.
I think Tebow will get a shot with someone. If I had to guess who, I'd say the following teams are in play (in priority order):
1. EAGLES (With or without Chip getting Mariota in the draft)
2. CHARGERS (following San Diego <> Tennessee Draft swap and Mariota selection by San Diego)
3. SEAHAWKS (QB2 behind Wilson)
Thoughts? r
BTW. While I would not want Tebow on the Browns, I still think he should have been part of Coach Pettine's plans: strong Defense with ball control spread option offense with Tebow behind center.
DeleteHowever, the Brown's hired a wild-card at OC this year ... John DeFilippo. His path to NFL OC isn't rich in experience to say the least. Maybe he's an offensive prodigy, who knows. See his resume below.
John DeFilippo’s Coaching Background:
2000 Fordham University, quarterbacks coach
2001-02 University of Notre Dame, graduate assistant coach
2003-04 Columbia University, quarterbacks coach
2005-06 New York Giants, offensive quality control coach
2007-08 Oakland Raiders, quarterbacks coach
2009 New York Jets, assistant quarterbacks coach
2010 San Jose State University, quarterbacks coach
2011 San Jose State University, offensive coordinator/quarterbacks coach
2012-14 Oakland Raiders, quarterbacks coach
2015- Cleveland Browns, offensive coordinator
Ron Dog:
DeleteAll three of the scenarios you pointed to make sense but it also makes sense for a half dozen other teams & Since Chip broke the ice & gave Tim his workout I don't know what to make of the silence that has followed from the rest of the teams.
Are the Eagles the only team that does their homework?? What are the other QB needy teams doing?? Why haven't they brought Tim in for a workout?? The Eagles proved it could be done without too much fanfare.
Wherever he goes it has to be a good fit, with the right circumstance. So far Chip seems to be the only one willing to act outside the box.
I think there are basically 2 groups of teams under consideration: the Eagles, and everybody else. Tim has a reasonable chance with Philly, and next to zero chance with anyone else ... at this time.
DeleteThere are four factors keeping teams from considering Tim.
1) Passing mechanics.
2) System fit.
2) The "circus".
3) Peer pressure.
Nothing has changed for 31 teams. They have not watched him throw since he worked with Tom House, so they do not believe he has improved. Even if he has improved, they do not want to deal with the media and fan attention that comes with him. And if they are ever tempted to relook their assumptions, the threat of being mocked by the rest of the league deters them.
Only Chip has crossed the line. He has clearly demonstrated by his actions that he is not afraid of media scorn or peer pressure. He has seen Tim throw, so he knows whether Tim has improved or not. And his system has long been described as an ideal fit for Tebow.
The rest of the teams are content to watch Chip cross the ice alone. If Chip does not sign Tim, they will conclude that Tim did not impress in his workout, and he will probably never get another look by anyone.
I think we have to accept that Tim is getting the best and fairest shot he could ever hope for. Chip Kelly has personally watched Tim throw. He knows Tim is available for a song. He knows Tim is a good fit for his system. He does not care about the circus. He does not care about his peers. It is the perfect situation.
Will Chip actually sign him? Who knows. I personally think he is maneuvering to grab Mariota if he falls far enough to be affordable. In that case, Chip probably sees Tim as a good fit as a #2 or #3. If Mariota goes in the top 10, and Chip is stuck with Bradford and Sanchez, then Tim is a bad fit and probably gets left out in the cold.
So let's see what happens on draft night.
Well said Ed. Agree with all of your points with only a couple of slight variations:
Delete1. I'm not 100% sure other team(s) haven't taken a look at Tim; either in person or on tape. Even though Tebow is tracked (stalked) pretty closely, there is a remote chance other teams have taken a look.
2. I think Chip would still bring Tebow on as QB2/3 if his QB1 was Bradford next season. If Tebow's accuracy and form have improved, as advertized, Tebow's style would be closer to a Mariota than a Bradford and provide Chip with another offensive look (perhaps even a preferred look) over a less mobile Bradford and Sanchez.
I completely agree that the Eagles are the best fit for Tebow and also represent the best chance for him to thrive.
I still can't help but think Bradford & Sanchez are primarily commodities for Chip to use on or before NFL Draft Night. If, as reported, the Browns still want to trade for Bradford, others might too.
What's fun about 'ol Chip is that he reminds me so much of the way Jimmy Johnson blew up his roster and orchestrated 51 trades in 5 years with the Cowboys. I know that Jerry Jones also claims credit for initiating the Walker trade and all the other moves; but, I personally think Jimmy Johnson was the architect in Big D. Chip has the same 'I don't give a flip' character that Johnson had in Dallas; something you need in the NFL when you constantly buck conventional wisdom.
RonDog
I am going to split the difference on the respective points you guys made.
DeleteFirst I agree with Ed that nothing has changed for the other 31 teams. For some of those teams not to at least show some curiosity in Tim's new mechanics suggests a degree of bias that nothing short of a miracle will change & even that might not be enough. Years even decades of futility has not been enough to even give this guy a look. To bolster this point I will point to the Chandler Harnish signing yesterday by the Cardinals. It looks like they haven't changed their modus operandi since last years Ryan Lindley playoff debacle.
It's sad that teams are more afraid of being mocked by taking a chance on Tim than they are by the lack of production on the field or the prospect of signing contracts on players as long as it fits standard protocol.
On the other hand I am more in line with Ron Dog's thinking when it comes to Chip bringing him to the Eagles. Based on Chip's comments after the workout, I believe that Tim impressed enough that at some point Chip will give him a shot whether he get's Mariotta or not. It just has to be too tempting to see a durable 240 lb. QB who can run (& THROW) with a track record of winning to not take a chance. It may not necessarily be in the conventional way we are used to seeing but I believe Tim is warming up in the bullpen. For whatever necessity may arise.
While I also believe he is manuvering to get Mariotta he will probably have to trade up all the way to #2 to do it. To be able to do that like Ron Dog says either Bradford or Sancez or both plus some high draft picks would have to be the price. Therefore making it unlikely.
There are so many variables at play that it makes this alot of fun to watch & also try to predict what might happen.
Personally I am rooting for Chip to have as much success as Jimmy Johnson did. I hope a part of this success will include Tim. The only difficulty for me would be having to get used to those Green uniforms. ;)
Watch out for Tebow-trolling April Fools posts tomorrow.
ReplyDeleteoh, that's why I wont log in on Twitter today. good point.
DeleteHa! No kidding, with the 49ers one standing out amongst the other 'nice-trys'. r
DeleteINTT, but man. Does anyone ever thinks about how he feels about being a punch line all the time!? I can't handle my thoughts after a small fight with my wife, I have no idea how I would handle that. And he makes a ton of dollares is a shitty argument. I mean, will it ever end???
DeleteThere are alot of rumors flying around right now some seem to be more crediible than others with the usual posturing going on right before the draft. One rumor that might some validity is the prospect of Phillip Rivers being swapped for Tennesse's #2 pick. I heard Teddy Bruschi giving some very good reasons why it would benefit both teams. I always liked Bruschi. During Tim's run in Denver when most all the other commentators were ripping him, Bruschi was very fair & went so far as to say that Tim was showing us a different way of doing it. So I respect his commentary.
ReplyDeleteAnyway he says Rivers because of his intensity & stature as a verteran would provide an instant lift to the Tennesee franchise & have instant credibility in the locker room with the players. Rivers & Wisenhunt have worked together before so there would be familiarity in knowing each other. He opines that the Titans do not believe Mettenberger is their guy going forward & Wisenhunt may not have time to develop a young Quarterback. On the San Diego side he believes both the Chargers & Rivers could benefit with a fresh start & that Mike McCoy having worked with Tim in Denver is flexible enough in his coaching to be able to adapt to Marriota's style of play & it would be good for Marriota because he would be closer to where he played at Oregon. Maybe this is one to watch. As far as Tim's prospects in this scenario are concerned, I believe McCoy would be interested in looking at Tim if he has the authority to do it. Tim was recently throwing to one of San Diego's recievers & LA is close enough to San Diego that's it's possible that some of their scouts have seen Tim throw.
Another rumor that got my attention of course involved the Eagles. (It just wouldn't feel right if the Eagles were not involved ;).
The link Bleedinggreennation.com claims there are talks going on between Cleveland & Philly to send Bradford to Cleveland in exchange for Manziel & some draft picks so Philly can then turn around & trade those bevy of picks to move up for Mariotta.
Philadelphia fans are not known for being very patient & while we have liked Chip's boldness he is under a very bright light.
My theory is that Chip is attempting the NFL version of the eBay trick where some kid starts with a paperclip and gradually trades up to a car. His ultimate objective would be to accumulate sufficient picks to move up and grab Mariota.
DeleteThat would be fine with me, as I think Chip scouted Tim specifically to assess his suitability as a backup to Mariota if they lucked into him.
I've been preaching patience, but the timing is starting to worry me.
ReplyDeletePhase I of the offseason begins on April 20 for most teams, including the Eagles. During that phase, which lasts 2 weeks, teams can conduct strength and conditioning and limited classroom work.
During phase II, teams can conduct individual and group field practice, but no full team drills or live contact. Phase II starts the first week in May for most teams.
Any team even remotely serious about any QB is going to want him on the team for phase II, and probably for classroom work in phase I. If we don't see the Eagles make a move for Tim by April 20, that is worrisome. If we don't see them make a move for him by the Monday after the draft, he's toast.
I'm surprised Barkley hasn't been dealt or released yet.
DeleteThey are really gambling pinning their fortunes on an often injured Bradford & a shaky Sanchez. Of course getting Mariotta or Manziel is no guarantee of success either but he would have the mobile QB's he likes.
First round QB's usually turn out to be busts. They usually are expected to come in & be the saviors for bad teams. They get thrown into the fire too soon & it normally backfires.
I was worried when I heard Manziel may be part of a deal with the Browns. If the Eagles have Manziel on the roster that wouldn't leave any room for Tim.
If they don't make a move for Tim after the draft I guess the best we could hope for would be that things have not gone according to plan & we would have to hope for an off the street signing.
Categorical statements usually blow up in my face, but I'll go ahead and venture that the Manziel rumor is too clever by half. It may be based in truth, as it's certainly plausible that the Browns have interest in trading for Sam Bradford, but Manziel is damaged goods with little value other than theoretical 'system fit'. The rumor suggests a 1st round pick and Manziel in exchange for Bradford. Chip would get more value out of taking a 1st round pick and a package of later round picks or even 2016 picks instead of Manziel because he's got a cheaper, more durable 'theoretical system fit' option at his disposal that doesn't come with a cocaine dealer on speed dial.
DeleteAll that said, the Mariota rumor itself also feels too clever by half, but I guess we'll wait and see.
I think the basic trade is Bradford for a first. The Browns are probably just looking for a way to get rid of him without looking like they have absolutely nothing to show for their pick last year. For Kelly, he's like free undercoating or floormats when you buy a new car. Just a trick for the salesman to jack up his commission. Who knows, maybe Kelly can package him with a 6th to trade up for a 5th, which he then packages with a 4th and his baseball card collection to trade up for a 3rd, and so forth.
DeleteDoes anyone know why Tim was in Gainesville yesterday? UF Pro Day was yesterday, btw.
ReplyDeleteDunno about Gainesville but he and Robby paid a visit to the state penitentiary up the road from there.
DeleteYes I knew about that, but he was supposedly near UF on the same day as UF's Pro Day. Obviously he didn't take part in Pro Day-the media would have been all over that-, but I'm hoping he had a private workout w/at least 1 team.
DeleteDon't know about any private workouts but it was pointed out the other day that SEC network people were out on the college campuses covering spring football & as far as I know Tim hasn't been making the SEC rounds. Hopefully this is a sign that he has things going on as far as playing is concerned.
DeleteRight, Greg McElroy represented SEC Network at UF Pro Day. You'd think if TT were going to do any preseason assignments for SECN it would be something like that.
DeleteIt's pretty clear he made a conscious decision to put his broadcast career on hold after the end of the 2014 season while he made another run at the NFL. His focus has been excellent, and encouraging.
DeleteI'm getting tired of obsessively checking Twitter for news. For better or for worse, a definitive end is coming and we are within 30 days of knowing if he will ever get another shot. I'll give it a week or two after the draft.
I still think his best and perhaps only shot is with the Eagles after Chip gets Mariotta. The pieces just all fit together so nicely. Unfortunately there is so much media focus on Mariotta right now, it is hard to see him falling low enough that Chip would be willing to pay the price to move up. I take him at his word when he says he won't bet the farm, and he would certainly have to do that to move to #2.
Ah well, at least I'm not a Cleveland resident.
The Dawg pound deserves so much better than they have been given. They are among the most loyal & most passionate fans in the country. It's hard to believe with their track record the Browns haven't even hinted at giving Tim a look. Especially after Chip gave them cover as far as being mocked goes.
DeleteIs it possible that Mariotta could do something similar to what Eli Manning & Elway did in refusing to sign with the teams that drafted them in order for Chip to be able to work a deal???
Personally I am not going to give up on Tim's prospects for playing if he is not signed for a training camp. I will quit believing when he says he has stopped trying or stops working out towards that end. I believe that if Chip is forced to go with Bradford & Sanchez at some point he will need to turn to another quarterback & hopefully that would be Tim.
Will the Jaguars win more than 4 games this year???
I'm not as convinced that TT's fate with the Eagles is exclusively tied to a Mariota signing. It obviously wouldn't hurt but I think we're getting too caught up in the Mariota speculation and missing the forest for the trees. I'm more inclined to believe that this is about disaster preparation and replacing the QB3 position irrespective of who sits at the top of the depth chart. Barkley is gone. The decision has been made and his replacement won't be waiting at the bottom of the barrel in the draft; that's why Chip worked out a stable of veteran quarterbacks this free agency. Among them only Tebow and Terrelle Pryor are particularly recognized for their mobility. Josh Freeman is less so and Thad Lewis not at all, which again suggests that the ability to compliment a Mariota-centric system was not necessarily Chip's primary metric. What he was looking for in my opinion was instead a durable player that can effectively run and pass a simplified package of plays that will give the team a fighting chance should disaster take down their other QB's. Going out on a limb, I think he found that player when he worked out TT, and admitted as much when he posted Barkley on eBay less than an hour later. At this point his objective at that position is to exploit as much potential trade value out of Barkley as possible. Signing his replacement now - whoever he is - will only undermine that effort. As always we just have to wait and see how transactions shake out following the draft.
DeleteKathryn, I think your reasoning is sound and could certainly be correct. I hope it is. The only evidence to contradict it would be the recent signing of Sanchez. It seems crazy to repeat the Jets 2012 scenario voluntarily. Not even Chip is that impervious to scorn and ridicule. When the Tebow Eagles workout rumors started, we thought they were absurd precisely because Sanchez was there.
DeleteMaybe Chip is preparing for 2 outcomes: with and without Mariotta. If MM falls within reach at a price he is willing to pay, he brings in one or two mobile backups with a similar style of play and goes all in with the spread option. If MM goes too high in the draft, he goes with a competition between Bradford, Sanchez, and Barkley (or someone else). They can all put their feet in 5 gallon buckets to avoid the temptation to run. Or wear concrete shoes. Philly fans know how to do that.
An alternative explanation would be that Sanchez is also trade bait. If they didn't sign him then they couldn't trade him. It is not an overly expensive contract for a veteran, with $5M guaranteed over 2 years.
Let's just take Chip at his word for the mo' and assume Bradford at #1 and Sanchez at #2. Now he runs the calculus on Tebow at #3 and inactive for the games in which both Bradford and Sanchez are healthy. Add to that the trashing Tebow's reputation as a player has taken and the added benefit that Chip isn't a buffoon when it comes to media management and we're no longer looking at the Jets 2012 scenario. Besides, logic would suggest that the so-called circus is indiscriminate, no? So why consider Tebow at all if adding him to the roster is going to psychologically cripple the guys ahead of him on the depth chart - whoever they may be? I don't think Chip just worked the guy out without giving it any thought.
DeleteAll that said, we're not taking Chip at his word so anything is possible. I am more and more convinced, however, that this whole Mariota thing is pie-in-the-sky, and that Chip's interest in TT has little to do with him. I think it has more to do with the fact that he can adequately pass and run a QB3 package, won't snap like a twig when he gets hit, and isn't Ryan Lindley.
Another thing that bodes well for TT is all those other QB's Chip worked out Pryor, Lewis, & Freeman have all been signed by other teams leaving only Tim available. If their intention from the beginning was to give him a fair shot sooner or later the Eagles will. He has way too much upside.
DeleteAnother way of looking at it is that Pryor, Lewis, and Freeman have all been signed, and Tim has not. Considering none of them made a team last year, that does not bode well for Tim.
DeleteOne thing we know for sure: the Eagles have actually seen Tim's new throwing motion. If there is an upside there, they know it. There is zero downside to bringing him in as a camp arm to see what he can do. Therefore, if they do not bring him in, his mechanics must not be as improved as we hope.
I agree it makes sense to hold off on signing Tim while they still hope to trade Barkley. But those hopes are dwindling and will basically disappear after the draft.
I suppose in theory Chip failing to get MM could make him more desperate and willing to bring in anyone. He won't feel good about going into the season with his current lineup. His 2 freebie years are done and he's on the clock this season.
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Delete>>Another way of looking at it is that Pryor, Lewis, and Freeman have all been signed, and Tim has not. Considering none of them made a team last year, that does not bode well for Tim.<<
And even another way of looking at it is that Chip didn't move on either of those three, either. So it really doesn't say anything about Tim.
>>Therefore, if they do not bring him in, his mechanics must not be as improved as we hope.<<
I don't agree with this conclusion either, not after Dilfer stuck his neck out a second time to say he's ready and that all he needs is an opportunity.
>>I suppose in theory Chip failing to get MM could make him more desperate and willing to bring in anyone.<<
I don't think he's betting the farm on landing Mariota. I think he'd be happy to get him, but isn't setting himself up for desperation in the event that it doesn't happen.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Pryor, Lewis, and Freeman have anything to do with Chip's decision making process. I'm saying that they illustrate the personnel process in the rest of the league. The clock is ticking and teams are locking in the last few roster spots before offseason training starts next week. When known duds like Freeman get swept up, it is a sign that the roster makers are into the odds-and-ends phase and the window for Tim to get signed by anyone is closing fast.
DeleteIt could be true that Chip is holding off on signing Tim while he tries to trade Barkley. I sure hope so. However, if we are honest with ourselves, there is more than a little wishful thinking driving that conclusion.
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ReplyDeleteThe NFL posted this to YouTube a few weeks ago... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmWnViL3rGw
ReplyDeleteInteresting to note the SEAHAWKS still haven't signed a veteran QB2/QB3:
ReplyDeletehttp://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/04/12/seahawks-have-no-veteran-backup-quarterback
Right behind Chip Kelly and Bill Belichick, the Seahawks' Pete Carroll might be the only other NFL HC that could ably handle the press with Tebow on the roster. Key word is 'ably'; I believe other coaches and front offices could handle a Tebow addition, but, would they.
I'd prefer Tebow on the EAGLES with Bradshaw and Sanchez ahead of him on the depth chart; but, would take a class organization like the SEAHAWKS any day.
RonDog
One proviso. There are a couple of characters on the SEAHAWKS that I'm not a huge fan of (ie. Michael Bennett, etc.). But, on the whole, they would be a team that values Tebow's strengths. Ron
DeleteI have never understood the Seahawk's lack of interest in Tim. He is a great system fit. Tebow and Lynch running the read option would be terrifying. And we know Richard Sherman, an outspoken friend of Tim's, would not be shy about advocating for him. You would think a guy like Pete Carroll wouldn't give a crap about the noise.
DeleteI think perhaps they were just worried about undermining their young franchise QB. That shouldn't be a factor this year, especially after Wilson gets a monster contract extension that makes him the highest paid player in the NFL.
Still, if Carroll were really interested in Tim he would have worked him out already. They have had plenty of chances, and the clock is ticking on OTAs in a week.
Did a little digging. Seattle GM John Schneider is a hater.
DeleteLooking into Seattle got me thinking. We spend a lot of time talking about head coaches who might like Tim. However, the general managers actually decide the roster in most cases. The HC gets a vote, but the GM owns the decision. Here is an interesting run down of NFL GM's from best to worst:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rotoworld.com/articles/nfl/53473/57/nfls-best-gms-2015
The only reason Tim got a look from the Eagles was because Chip took over the roster decisions from his GM predecessor who was not a Tebow supporter although strangely enough he is also a Florida Grad. For whatever reason the GM's as a collective body have decided that Tebow is unworthy of roster consideration & so far none have been willing to step outside this confining box. There is no other conclusion to be drawn from the lack of interest in not giving Tim a look. This may be the one case in which they will gladly leave this stone unturned instead of looking to see what might be underneath in an effort to get an edge on the other teams.
DeleteI just heard an interview with one of the really good guys, Champ Bailey who definitely thinks Tim should get another chance to play. He says Tim had everyone against him because of his unconventional style of play. He thinks Tim because he is unconventional would fit nicely with an unconventional coach like Chip Kelly. Hopefully Chip Kelly feels the same way. It is probably Tim's only hope. I wasn't concerned when Pryor, Freeman, Lewis & some of these other Qb's were signed by other teams because I never felt Tim would get a chance with any of them I was just glad the Eagles did not sign them. Bailey says he hasn't seen him throw lately but if he is improved there is no doubt he could play.
I wish there were more GM's like Champ Bailey & Tedy Bruschi.
Awfully quiet on the Tebow front...
ReplyDeleteYep. Expected but unnerving. Some theories:
Delete1) Chip is waiting to see if he can trade Barkley.
2) Chip is waiting to see if he can get Mariotta.
3) Chip didn't like what he saw, or never intended to sign him in the first place.
Teams are guarding their intentions closely, so I doubt we'll hear anything before the draft, but we should know within a few days afterward.
After that, his last chance would be as a camp arm. Pats maybe? Also, CFL training camps start in early June.